Burg's question is "can you have sex without validation?"
Of course you can have sex without validation. I thought his question is whether sex with validation is better than sex without validation and if so, why?
But then what definition of validation is he using? If you assume that he is talking about sex that is not "forced", then by definition isn't any sex "validation." By having sex with Raven haven't I validated that I want to have sex with him?
However I think Burg was referring to the fact that it seems Cemar has expanded the "validation" to mean that he needs sex from his wife to prove that he is worthwhile and desirable as a man. So he needs his wife to pursue him in order to feel good about himself. That's why "merely" having sex is not good enough for him because he seems to need a deeper validation than her participation.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Exactly! No matter how we may try to differentiate, if we have sex with someone, we will feel some level of connection, otherwise we are a robot. So when rejected, we can not help but feel hurt. True differentiation is only theory, IMO. Sort of like calculus, you can try to approach the limit of differentiation but never actually reach it.
What if I had sex with you and then 2 minutes later I wanted sex again and you said "Sorry, Mojo, not feeling the desire." Should I feel hurt? This is, of course, a ridiculous example but most sane people would say that I shouldn't feel hurt because there would be an obvious reason for your lack of desire that had nothing to do with my desirability. Why does it make a difference if the reason is not so obvious or even reasonable?
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Sex without the need for validation is the best because you KNOW that you are desirable, f*ckable, sexy, wonderfully sexual etc. before the sex even begins and so does your partner.
How do you come to KNOW that you are desirable, f*ckable, sexy, wonderfully sexual etc? If you grew up alone, in a cave, would you know this to be the case, or is it only through the feedback and admiration of the opposite sex that you come to know this? Doesn't your confidence of your desirability come from the attractions with boys that you have as a youth?
So even though you may not seek validation now, aren't you still a product of your past validation, and isn't that past validation necessary to get to the point of being a mature adult who no longer needs present day validation (if you can still follow me)?
Yeah but that's the question Burg is asking Cemar, isn't it? Cemar is not rejected directly because he says his wife will make love. He feels his rejection indirectly from the fact that she does not initiate making love.
So when rejected, we can not help but feel hurt.
So what's the answer, to never say no to someone you love because you don't want to hurt them? That does not seem healthy either. If you always say yes to them, then by definition you end up saying no to yourself which then becomes self-denial doesn't it? That's not healthy for relationships either.
Couldn't the answer be to not take the answer "no" as a rejection of your core being but to see it as the answer to the question at the moment?
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
What if I had sex with you and then 2 minutes later I wanted sex again and you said "Sorry, Mojo, not feeling the desire." Should I feel hurt? This is, of course, a ridiculous example but most sane people would say that I shouldn't feel hurt because there would be an obvious reason for your lack of desire that had nothing to do with my desirability. Why does it make a difference if the reason is not so obvious or even reasonable?
I don't know if you should feel hurt or not, and my reasoning might have to do with how I feel about your desirability. You might be very desirable to me when I am horny, but afterward, maybe not.
The question I think is not whether you should or should not be hurt, since that is only theoretical, but rather would you or would you not be hurt, because that is what is, and what you have to deal with.
So what's the answer, to never say no to someone you love because you don't want to hurt them? That does not seem healthy either. If you always say yes to them, then by definition you end up saying no to yourself which then becomes self-denial doesn't it? That's not healthy for relationships either.
Couldn't the answer be to not take the answer "no" as a rejection of your core being but to see it as the answer to the question at the moment?
I agree with your answer, and for me, there are times when I take a no as just the answer to the question of the moment. But when those moments seem to string together into a pattern then rejection is hard to put off. I think what is needed is a show of compassion from the spouse.
Whether we try to avoid it or not, sex IS a validating experience. I do think we all like sex for the fun of sex, but also for the EC, or validation. If we cannot have sex, then the spouse can lessen the feeling of rejection by giving a substitute form of validation, which may be as simple as expressing regret, promising to make it up, or some other simple show of compassion. That type of validation is not as satisfying, but it helps, and is certainly better than expressing nothing at all.
The person being rejected can do his/her part by “holding onto him/herself,” taking on a little detachment, and not personalizing it. I see the solution as a mutual effort from both parties. At least that's my theory. Still working on it....
How do you come to KNOW that you are desirable, f*ckable, sexy, wonderfully sexual etc? If you grew up alone, in a cave, would you know this to be the case, or is it only through the feedback and admiration of the opposite sex that you come to know this? Doesn't your confidence of your desirability come from the attractions with boys that you have as a youth?
I have a certain amount of confidence in my sexual behavior due to my life experience, just like I have a certain amount of confidence as a swimmer because I've been swimming since I was a toddler, but that's not what I'm talking about.
Imagine two identical women. One truly wants sex. The other truly doesn't. Already, one is more desirable, right? Now let's say that the one who wants sex starts taking actions in accordance with her desire. Maybe she puts on a corset because she knows a .67 waist to hip ratio is attractive to men - lol. Maybe she leaves her house and goes to social gatherings where she might find single men. Maybe she puts a large mirror by her bed and buys a creative variety of pillows. Maybe she reads dating/making psychology books with an open curious mind. Etc. Etc. It's true that all these actions will probably result in validation of her desirability by men but really she's just self-validating her desire. It's no different than if a woman had the goal of being a great runner who would naturally receive validation for her running ability when she went out and raced. She wouldn't necessarily even have to run a race to self-validate because she would know that her training got her into the kind of shape that would lead to that result. I KNOW that if I went out to a bar on Friday night in my little black dress I would almost certainly get offers for sex and I KNOW if I had sex I would communicate openly and my body would almost certainly respond wonderfully and my partner would almost certainly get some enjoyment from the experience so I don't need to go to the bar if I just want validation but I might go if I just wanted "just sex." Actually, the thing that is most amazing is that I could probably even manage a certain level of connected sex with a stranger from a bar, at least to the point of " Hey there fellow human, isn't it great to be alive in a world where you can f*ck!"
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I don't think I've ever had sex for validation. Ever. And I've been thinking REALLY HARD about this one.
Quote:
I've been thinking about it and can't come up with any way that a sex life with validation is better than a sex life without validation. Help me understand your perspective in which sex without validation is inferior.
In order to have sex... without it being an act of aggression, or rape... someone has to WANT to, or be willing to, have sex.
Now... I do understand CeMar's example... however, for her to even have sex, without CeMar forcing himself on her, indicates some form of willingness.
So. I'm not so sure this is about validation or willingness or desire. Mrs. CeMar is just pissed off... and she isn't seeing CeMar as 'Prince Charming' anymore. She is mirroring back to him, what she sees and feels... and he doesn't like what she is showing him.
In order for her to mirror back something else... CeMar is gong to have to BE something else.
Ok, this doesn't directly relate to validation and I'm not sure if there is any insight here or not but here's a story and Cemars story reminded me of this. A long, long time ago when I was truly LD, H and I went golfing and then on a picnic. In the park we were pretty isolated but they were some people so not exactly alone. I gave H a full BJ and enjoyed it. There was no reciprocation it was all for him and I was (struggling to find the right emotion to put in here... ) well I was happy, proud, (remember I was LD)I felt really good about giving.. anyway all kinds of feelings. Well, for probably two years, and I don't think I am exagerating, could even be longer all I heard from H was "You want to go on a picnic?" and it bugged the h*ell out of me. Sad part is I don't know why other than I think I went into good girl, mom mode & thought what did I do? Cemar- Do you ever pressure her about what she used to do?
Love at first sight is easy to understand; it's when two people have been looking at each other for a lifetime that it becomes a miracle. (Amy Bloom)
LIH great thing for guys to note what can happen when they are indirect with their wants & needs. What do you think would have happened if your husband was more direct as to what wanted instead of just hinting at it?
