Plank removed from eye, too late for WAW 3

[Heimlich]

Last thread locked. Here goes number 3.

Link to second thread

First thread

Short summary.

Me: slightly depressed, unhappy, navel gazing. W: Felt like she had to pull the weight in our R. Had an A last summer. Quite simply, we both stopped trying to put each other first and despite a lot of love between us, we let it slip away.

More details -- and a lot of good advice that I could have followed more effectively, in the two links above.

August 16

Today was divorce mediation day. Was a little late getting there, traffic was slower than normal due to rain. W was in lobby when I arrived. Me; a little stunned and distant. Smiled, said good morning. Minimal eye contact. Gave myself a mental nudge to not be an a$$ or problematic, after all, we really do agree on how we're going to split things.

The mediator was very nice. He began by asking a little background. I gave a brief overview of how I felt, still in love, think our problems are mostly communication issues, had an epiphany a few weeks ago and really realize what my W needs in a H and think that I can give it to her. We're here because she thinks otherwise. Didn't mention the A.

W echoed and confirmed my points.

He then asked if we had tried councelling. I said yes, but I think she just allowed us to express how we felt at that time without giving us a viable path to the future. W said it was valuable in that it allowed her to express her feelings, but that she thought I was basically right.

Mediator went on to say a few interesting things: 1. In his experience, most M councelling doesn't work for the same reasons I gave and that it's hard to find someone good, 2. He's had clients begin the path to D and decide to reconcile, literally on the courthouse steps in one instance, and 3. That in a study that he say that most couples who stayed married after a rough patch rather than divorcing were happier than couples who had divorced. I about fainted with delight. Wasn't really looking at my W, but she was listening and without her pissed off look that she gets when she doesn't want to hear something.

I was already in a better mood, as my tea was kicking in about now, but those tidbits perked me up. Won't bore you with the details, but we sorted out the custody arrangement and made progress on the financial stuff. We'll go back for an hour next Tues and after that he'll draw up the agreement. Weird, this conversation sucked, but it was pleasant. Managed to laugh a few times at a few jokes I made.

Voluntary versus contested (that's not the legal word) separation is required in Maryland. One year, versus two after which the separation agreement becomes a legally binding document on which the D is based (or something like that). I told him even though I don't want it, I'll agree to voluntary because she does.

I only lost my cool once. I was unprepared for this. He said that some couples have written agreements on introducing new dates/partners to the children -- only after 6 months, no sleepovers when the kids are there, etc. I lost my cool for a few minutes, said I know that I can't control her dating, nor want to (we both said that we're not interested in dating now anyway), but that I don't want OM around our girls. He's a piece of poop and I don't want someone like that as an example for my kids. Someone who's cheated on his W twice with co-workers and how many others is not the example I want set for my Ds. W was looking a little defensive at this. Mediator said something about not being able to control who my W dates. I said, well, you aren't going to date him anyway. She responded with, "I never sadi that, just that I don't feel about him like I used to" Not a huge fan of that statement, but let it slide and we moved on after agreeing to not put anything in writing because we both agree that the other is going to do what's in the best interest of the girls when introducing someone to them.

After we left, I called her. She was right behind me, so stuck my hand out of the window with the phone. Apologized for bringing him into it as it was really relevant to anything. She said thanks for calling.

And, there we are. I'll be looking for an apartment. Target is to be out by end of Sept, maybe earlier. She agreed not to rush me into moving into a crappy neighborhood.

Went better than I expected. Still stinks. Still hopeful that her heart will change. Just going to totally focus on myself now, and the girls of course. Because we don't want to pay for daycare and I work at home, I'll see them everyday anyway since I'll be watching them after school.

It will get better,

BD

[oldtimer]

BD,

Unless you get something that is legally binding, let go of controlling whether or not the kids meet OM.

Start looking around. The kids ALWAYS meet the OP and almost always without the LBSs knowledge or consent once things progress to sep, regardless of promises not to introduce them, promises to put the kids first, promises to let you know, and so on.

Given a certain amount of time, I know of ZERO exceptions. I also know of ZERO exceptions of the LBS not thinking that their case will be an exception.

It is clear that W is not through with OM. Don't deceive yourself about that. He is still a possibility for her. If she is not currently involved with him, she may be in the future.

So, either get your OM restriction in writing or forget it. My recommendation is to forget it. You cannot control who your W dates and/or who she introduces to the children.

Your W is most likely lying when she says she is not interested in dating or finding another R, not maliciously, but just to try to make things easier on you.

So, to sum up: assume your W is looking forward to dating and a new R, assume W may well date (or is dating) OM, assume that your kids will meet whoever W dates sooner rather than later, and accept all of that. The worst thing that can happen is that you will be pleasantly surprised. But, fighting any of it will not get you anywhere.

As for your other thread -- don't make W's pain about the pressured sex about you. If it felt very bad to her, it probably had nothing to do with you. Rather, her actions in putting herself in a victim role and not enforcing her own sexual boundaries probably made HER FEEL like she did at some point when she truly was a victim. The same feelings evoked, through different circumstances.

This is not to minimize your own responsibility -- of course you shouldn't pressure anyone into sex who is not a fully willing participant -- that isn't good for anyone, but you know that. And, with you, W had a real choice. She WAS NOT in fact a victim without choices, even if I am right and she experiences similar feelings.

[oldtimer]

P.S. Given there was an OM, the other VERY OBVIOUS explanation for W's bad feelings around sex is simple guilt on her part. She got involved with OM again and felt crappy anytime you came near her.

[Heimlich]

OT,

That's where we left it, no control, no written agreement and no intention to push for one. I'll just take her at face value that she's not interested in dating right now. It'd almost be a relief to know that she was seing OM still. Then there would be an external reason for her not working on the M. Over the last two months, and even before, I've felt at fault a lot -- even though I know I'm not being totally fair to myself in thinking that way.

Maybe it's just pride, but I really hate the idea of her being with him. One, yes, it would hurt. Two, it's hard for me to see how starting a relationship with a cheater is going to be good for her and, by extension, my girls. Anyway, you're right, it doesn't bear thinking on because it's her decision to make. It's not my girls meeting someone my W is dating in the future, it's the thought of them meeting HIM that bugs the hell out of me.

Your comments on the sex issue have been enlightening. We were each other's firsts, so I don't think we ever did a good job of setting those boundaries over the years. Even so, I think the disconnect in sex was as basic as I needed sex to feel emotionally connected to her and she needed me to do things around the house to feel emotionally connected to me to have sex. There were times when we got that mix pretty ok.

Regardless, I'll either be better with her or with someone else in the future.

BD

[Heimlich]

OT,

PS. Given there was an OM, the other VERY OBVIOUS explanation for W's bad feelings around sex is simple guilt on her part. She got involved with OM again and felt crappy anytime you came near her.

I've thought about that, but chosen to believe my W. Wanted (want) to make this R work so what else could I really do?

I also think that even if that's not the case, and I really don't think it is, she has some level of guilt about what she did relative to me and had a hard time opening up to me. Granted, I didn't help, but I did try to talk to her about that and she wouldn't let me in. She's said over and over that she's not guilty, but I just have a gut feeling that she just has those emotions in max security lockdown.

BD

[SuperDad]

She's said over and over that she's not guilty, but I just have a gut feeling that she just has those emotions in max security lockdown.

Yup!

One other question: Why are you moving out?!? She is the one who wants out and you are going to watch the kids. She should make it clear who is leaving...HER!!

SD

[ItsKat]

I agree on the guilt feelings too.

SD made a good point about you moving out if you are working from home. Are you going to come over to your (W's) house every day?

[alk24]

Mediator went on to say a few interesting things: 1. In his experience, most M councelling doesn't work for the same reasons I gave and that it's hard to find someone good, 2. He's had clients begin the path to D and decide to reconcile, literally on the courthouse steps in one instance, and 3. That in a study that he say that most couples who stayed married after a rough patch rather than divorcing were happier than couples who had divorced. I about fainted with delight.

That just made me cry (not really a hard thing to do these days).
I wish all of our spouses could see that.

[Heimlich]

Thanks everyone. As much as I hate the idea of moving out of the house. My reasons are practical and with an eye toward DBing.

1. While she makes more than me, and theoretcially owes me child support (we didn't totally finish the financial aspects), I make enough that I can't claim alimony. Simply put, she can afford to the mortgage and utilities. I can't. Well, I could, but I would have less money to do fun things.
2. I really don't want to live here by myself. I feel like I need a fresh start. Were I in the house all of the time, I have a feeling that I would be unhappy.
3. She wants to live in the house, I don't really want to fight her. Plus, it just doesn't feel like home anymore. Should the seas part and we make a go of our R in the future, I'll still push to sell.
4. We'll sell it in about a year and split it.
5. I just need to transfer my work phone line and get a working high-speed connection and I'm good for work.
6. I'm watching the kids because I can due to my current job. There will be days on "my" weeks with the girls that she'll have to pick them up and we're not going to be hard and fast about time together. I'm going to get a place close to where we are now. We'll probably move further out to a better school district by this time next year or in 2 years at the latest (we don't want our girls to go to the middle school here).
7. I've never had my own place -- home, college (roomates), lived with her for a year, grad school in a group house, then marraige. The idea of having a place that's mine is actually kind of exciting.
8. I currently lift in my basement. Moving out will force me to join a gym and perhaps meet people. I'm relatively shy in person and need to break out of my shell and meet new people. Plus, the idea of being in the back of a yoga class full of hot chicks . . . that don't sound too bad.
9. Oh, and we're going to furnish the new apt out of joint funds (primarily new bed for me and a bed for the girls and pots/pans), then split. I know I've said it before, but neither of us is out to screw the other (well, moneywise)


By not being a pain in the ass, I think I improve my chances of making this work. Yes, I could be bitter and fight her tooth and nail for every little thing. I simply don't want to. Plus, I'll have contact with her a lot. She'll have to pick the girls up after work on her week (daddy daycare baby!) and she's going to watch them on nights when I have rugby/late in the office/dance. She'll be able to see changes that I make -- we've both agreed to be flexible with the weekly schedule and to help each other with our work schedules (or if one wants to take the girls to an event on the 'other's' weekend).

I also told her today (I think I've mentioned that she's been walking on eggshells around me, waiting for me to explode) to stop withdrawing from me. She was cooking and I was sitting in the kitchen with her trying to make small talk. I knew that she was tense and I guess waiting for me to erupt. I said something like you're being very rude to me. She replied that she didn't mean to be. Can't remember exactly what I said, but asked her if I needed to remind her how I felt, that I wasn't just saying that to avoid the D, that I want to be friendly, and honestly, you're not being friendly. She said, no, I know how you feel. About a minute later, she just started the idle friend-like chit chat you have with your H/W will doing housework. Friendly and loose. Don't think I'm turning any corners here, but I think she's starting to realize that I'm not going to explode in anger toward her over this. Obviously, that's good in and of itself. Hopefully, once I move out, she'll start chewing on a lot of this stuff.

I'm really going to be OK. Going to keep DBing. Really need to reread the book now for tips on how to handle this situation. At this point, I have a W who has said she never fully committed to making the M work and is running away. 4 months ago, knowing what I know about myself now, I think she would have been completely justified and that neither of us could have been happy. Today, I know that we could be really good together, but she would rather run that give an honest effort. I deserve better than that.

Still actively working to bust this thing,

BD

[oldtimer]

Ah, more R talk. More telling her what she is doing wrong. More pursuit. More crowding her. More telling her what you want.

How about instead just giving her the space she has asked for.

Back off. Stop the R talk. JUST STOP IT.