Again, your reply is all about you. Forget about being RIGHT. This is about how W FELT. This is about validating her feelings. It sounds like from her position, your sexual advances were as unwelcome and gross as one's coming from a boss. That is her experience. If she told you it was OK, she was probably lying to either protect you or to protect herself.
If this is correct and she had sex with you under such conditions, she probably FELT a lot like a victim of rape, molestation, or at the very least bad-somewhat-coerced-sex. FORGET how justified you believe you were in your actions. Focus on what she is sharing with you and focus on understanding HER experience. Acknowledge that it was wrong for her to have ever been in that position. Make it all about empathy and understanding for her. Just forget your own interests for a moment and make it about HER. If it makes you ill to imagine her feeling that way, then imagine how much worse it would actually be to be the one feeling that way. Imagine what it would be like not to really be heard each time you express those feelings.
To be honest, your light-hearted triangle comment turned my stomach on W's behalf. I have little doubt that she continues to feel sexual pressure and sexual interest from you even though she has tried to convey how painful that is to her.
Try to stop your defenses from preventing you from hearing things. Here is another exercise. Print out all your posts for the last month. Go through them with two highlighters. Count all the times you say something that amounts to "Yes, BUT," then count all the times you said "Yes" without being defensive. A "BUT" negates the "yes."
A counter point as well. Sex is an integral part of marriage. If she doesn't want sex she needs to speak up. If she wants sex she needs to speak up. Sure, he can agree and validate her but he also needs to realise that he's not dealing with a fully rational being. Her perceptions are her, by fully validating everything he is also perpetuating her idea that EVERYTHING she says is correct. It would be better if this type of thing was done through a counselor so that a more balanced view eventually comes out.
H, You own only 50% of the problems. You need to validate her concerns and don't argue (as OT says, no buts). You do not, however, need to personally agree inside that she is correct but you do need to let her voice be heard. Try to get her into counseling if you can because something doesn't ring true in her "always felt that way" statements. Seems she's painting you with a very wide brush.
I said nothing about Heimlich's actions being right or wrong during that period. No doubt W has a responsibility to set and enforce her own boundaries regarding sex. It certainly sounds as though she was not handling that responsibility. It also sounds as though she is trying to work on those boundaries now, so she seems to be making some progress. Hopefully, Heimlich can do a better job of respecting those boundaries now that she is stating them more clearly.
But none of this is here nor there when it comes to understanding, acknowledging, and validating W's feelings. All of this right/wrong blame game stuff is focused on arguing that she should not have felt them, which helps no one.
I'm not expressing myself well because I totally agree with your point. I know that there is not right or wrong and this is how my wife felt. I have told her that and apologized to her for making her feel that way -- without any "but" statements. And I am ashamed for not picking up on some hints that, looking back, I should have picked up on. It literally made me sick to my stomache when I realized how my actions contributed to the way she was feeling. Yes, she knows that I am still attracted to her. I've not laid a hand anywhere but on her should, arm, hand, or back since April. I have not, in any way, pushed her to be sexual with me. Does she still know that I'm attracted to her? Yeah, she'd have to be an idiot not to, and she's far from that. Sorry, but I can't just turn off almost 17 years of attraction overnight -- though I don't leer, touch, hint, suggest, proposition anything toward her. You seem to be equating my sexual feelings toward my W as pressure. If so, yes, I'm guilty. As are probalby the majority of the men on this board.
My other point is this, more than anyone else, I love my W and want her to be happy, and I wanted to make her happy. She was feeling these things, but not telling me I was making her feel this way. I didn't know. And it hurts that the person you love and to whom you've expressed a view of intimacy to that is more in line with, from what I've read, many women feel to finally, AFTER THEY DECIDE ON THEIR OWN THAT THE RELATIONSHIP IS OVER, finally tell me how my actions made her feel. I am not some insensitive ogre who wanted to have sex with her even if she didn't want to. The other thing is that in the 2 months prior to the ILYBNILWY speach, she was more receptive to my advances than she had been and she seemed very willing. And, on nights that I knew she was tired, I wouldn't even bring it up, which was different than in the past. What angers me is that she is also responsible for her feelings, but she has chosen to place the blame entirely on me and take no responsibility for herself or the way that she interacted with me contributed to where we are. I'm sorry, but that is wrong.
No offense was intended with my triangle comment. She's told me she felt like a piece of meat. I fully realize how she felt that way and have told her so. While on the one hand, I tend to have a view of sex as a real emotional coming together of two people in love; it's also fun. You can't be too serious about it. You don't know me, so don't attribute anything that would 'turn your stomache' to me for a light-hearted comment that, if you really read what I was trying to say, conveys that I love my W for who she IS, not what she HAS.
The really funny thing about this is that I often felt used too by my wife. After her time of the month, she would be extremely horny. I, of course, was very happy about that. After she had her fill though, she would start rejecting me again.
Anyway, again. To your basic point, you're correct. I DID make my W feel like an object, despite whatever was in my heart and I deeply and sincerely regret that and take ownership of that. But, (yes, an infamous but) she bears part of the responsibility as well and I guess I'm just fed up of being blamed for making her feel bad when she never talked to me about any issues she had with me. She swallowed them; never shared them with me; and now my M is over -- without ever having the chance to work together as a team to see if we could meet each other's needs. Instead of doing that, for us, for our girls, she's running. And really, has been for a few years now.
Sorry for the rant. You touched a nerve and are painting me in a way that is incorrect.
BD
My latest
Me: 36 W: 35 2 D: 9 and 5 T: 16 years M: 12 10/4/06: Bomb 10/5/06: Ended A 4/22/07: ILYBNILWY
Seriously, thanks for your insight. All of what I wrote has been bubbling up for a few days. I realized what sparked the anger -- your use of the words 'rape' and 'molestation' when 'unappreciated advances' would have done. Those are strong words to throw around. Yes, they were geared toward what my W may have been thinking (though she has given me no indication that was the case). There is a world of difference between my W's current perception that she was eternally rolling over at my pesky advances to shut me up/stop me from whining and either 'rape' or 'molestation.' And, yes, as in most marriages, there were times when she 'did me a favor.' Were there times when she gave in when she REALLY didn't want to. Yes, and I wish, now, that I had been strong/wise enough to stop. However, she also said yes quite often and seemingly enjoyed herself. My issue is what NH hit on and what you mentioned, her setting of boundaries, and placing the blame entirely on me in her mind. I know that I can't say anything about that to her, though I did a little yesterday, if my goal is to win her back (it is). It is just so infuriating to hear. I'm letting it out much more strongly here than I have with her.
Saving/Stew, thanks for taking the comment in the spirit it was intended. Dirty-minded DBers, unite!
GD, love ya, babe. You are my current inspiration for patience. I'll take any love I can get today.
Best to all,
BD
My latest
Me: 36 W: 35 2 D: 9 and 5 T: 16 years M: 12 10/4/06: Bomb 10/5/06: Ended A 4/22/07: ILYBNILWY
"The time to have an R talk is when the WAS chooses to work on the M and VERY CLEARLY communicates that choice to you, independently, without prompting.
If they haven't done that, then it is PRETTY DARN CLEAR where the R is. One person does not want to be in the M, the M no longer exists. No R talk required."
To be clear, I don't think you are a horrible person who has been treating his W terribly. I never said you MADE W feel any way. I don't think you were molesting or raping your W. But, that choice of words was no accident. People do not go on and on and feel traumatized if they merely feel like someone made an unwanted sexual advance. Again, it is about HER experience. Whatever led her to having such poor sexual boundaries in the first place to set her up to feel like a victim is most likely something that predates you.
W allowed herself to play the victim role and is still living that role. That is fair to no one. I am sure that you have made this point to her in your own words.
Just try to stop telling her how she is wrong and how she should not have allowed herself to play the victim. Instead, focus on her feelings, acknowledging and understanding them thoroughly.
Quit trying to fix her. Quit trying to show her the error of her ways. You are not her therapist.
If you "must" defend yourself, then make it short, direct, and very on point: "W, I am furious that your silence set me up to play the role of the abuser. It was not a role I willingly played, but I acknowledge playing it. For that I am deeply sorry, because my lack of willingness does not make your feelings any less painful right now."
Of course, it sounds like you have already said this and it probably does not bear repeating right now. So, why not focus on simply being compassionate and understanding with respect to the trauma she is trying to cope with?
Beyond that, the problem of figuring out how to avoid repeating the pattern in the future only enters in IF she chooses to pursue an R with you.
As for wanting physical intimacy, pretty much all LBSs crave it, both men and women. Your case is special though. If your W is seeing you as a sexual predator in any way, then her awareness of your desires is itself traumatizing and pressure. It doesn't matter whether you act on those desires or not, their existence is itself a threat. In your case, it seems to me that sex needs to be ENTIRELY off the table for YOU right now.
As for your triangle comment, I don't find it at all personally offensive. It is quite clear that you meant it in a sweet way. My discomfort is on your W's behalf. If I am correct about how she is feeling, that kind of comment would go over about as well as telling a rape victim in a light-hearted caring tone: "Gee honey, I can see that you are a tasty little morsel, but he should never have treated you that way." This is because of her skewed perception from maintaining a victim role.
Of course, this could all be wrong. Perhaps your W was just annoyed about the pressure and did not feel at all victimized. However, given her deep concern with it and frequent restatement of her feelings, this seems unlikely.
I'm riveted to this post. Heim, I think I may have posted on your threads before. Our R histories are pretty similar.
Originally Posted By: Heimlich
OT, And, yes, as in most marriages, there were times when she 'did me a favor.' Were there times when she gave in when she REALLY didn't want to. Yes, and I wish, now, that I had been strong/wise enough to stop. However, she also said yes quite often and seemingly enjoyed herself.
On reflection, I've realized also that I pushed more that I should have. For the most part, she returned the affection and enjoyed the pleasure, but I did notice more and more in the period before the bomb that it seemed as though she were just going through the motions. I also wish that I had the willpower to just stop, but I am weak in that area. If we ever get back to that sort of intimacy I will back off when I get the obvious body language.
