Plank/WAW, thread 2

[Heimlich]

Arg, talk about cheeseless tunnels. So my W wanted to go over the mediation papers prior to our meeting Thursday. I said fine. State again we're making a big mistake, quitting too soon. I then asked her it'd be easier if I knew why you weren't willing to work on it -- went over the pushing sex, I feel like we've grown apart, and you didn't take any initiative around the house. Oh, she also said I could make her feel small (which I knew, but never intended). All partly or mostly true. Of course, I didn't take initiative because everytime I did, if I didn't do it the way she wanted it done or slightly impefectly, a world of sh@t would rain down on my head. For example, wanted to wash clothes, oh 6 or 7 years ago now. Accidentally shrank one of her shirts. She went ballistic. Rather than walking me through her laundry, which I was willing to do, she decided that I was an idiot unable to operate the proper machinary. Made me feel 2 inches tall. She's done that on other things as well. I told her this tonight, and she agreed, I hurt you too. Plus, she was good at it.

I see all of our problems as communication issues and she sees that we have deeply rooted differences.

She said she just doesn't like me, which, I guess I just have to believe is true, but she is a damn fine actress about it because she fooled the hell out of me. I am still convinced that if we were to be honest with each other about our needs and work on meeting them for the other, we could have a great marraige. She's not interested. She's confusing my actions over the years with who I am/want to be. They're intertwined, but she refuses to see changes. She mentioned that I've been nicer to the girls. She said it just makes her cringe because it's like I'm faking it. I said, so trying to be less angry with the girls is faking? (I had been a littel too hard on them for a while) She said it just seemed so false.

Well, she is convinced at this point that she is done and that this relationship is over. I'm considering taking off my ring because I'm starting to feel like a fool for wearing it.

I don't want it to be, but after asking her again if she would reconsider and attempt to focus on our R, there's nothing I can do but keep becoming a better person day by day.

I keep gently tapping on the door with actions and, as tonight -- some gentle words, but she ain't opening.

Toward the end of our conversation, I asked her to do herself a favor. Really think about what you want in a relationship, you can't tell me know and I don't think you really know. As someone I care about, I'd hate to see you having this conversaton with someone else 15 years from now. I'd rather we work things through today.

Sorry, this rambled a bit. Hurting a good bit. I'll probably in an apartment by the end of Sept. "Sooner rather than later were her words."

Not giving up all hope, but it's no longer worth talking to her about anything other than logistics. I'm moving on. The door is going to be open for a while, don't know how long. It really is time to start living my life for me.

BD

[Heimlich]

Went upstairs a few minutes ago and gave my wife my ring. My goal is to still be married to this woman, but it just feels wrong to wear it. To me, it represents our love and is a symbol of our unity. According to her, that's not been present for a good 3 or so years. Over the last few weeks, I've felt like a fraud for wearing it and have caught myself getting angry when looking at it. Nomo, if you're reading this, this is more like the 336 hour rule. I've been thinking about it a lot.

My goals haven't changed. I still want to be married to her.

I asked if I could tell her something. She said yeah.

I'm done talking. I've tried to express the love that I have for you in the best way that I can. Those words were and are from the heart. I'll still be friendly and joke around with you, but, for now, that part of our R is over. I know that I need to make changes to have you in my life, but I'm not making these changes for you. I'm going to continue to try to be a better person regardless of our relationship. If you ever want to talk as a friend, don't hesitate to call me -- if you want advice or a shoulder to lean on, I'll be there for you. I'm still in love with you. I don't know how long that feeling will stay -- 1 month, 6 months -- I have no idea. I know that I'll always love you, but I won't always be in love with you. If you ever feel that this wasn't the right thing to do, please don't let pride stand in your way -- talk to me. Odds are that I'll have these feelings for you for a long time. If I don't, I'll be honest with you. So, please, just call and we can talk if you ever feel that way. And don't feel like I'll rake you over the coals. Were we to ever have that conversation, I would proceed just like if you told me you wanted to make this work now or tomorrow.

AH, poop.

[Not Much Left]

H
Sounds like a few of has similar conversations tonight.

Do you really feel like you did the wrong thing. If you presented it the way you did, I dont think so.

What did she say afterward?

[Not Much Left]

Whoops, typos,
"A few of us had..."

[oldtimer]

Why don't you try something else?

Quit pushing your agenda completely and give W the physical and emotional space she has consistently asked for.

There are things that go around these boards. A current one seems to be: "I repeated myself ad nauseum and pushed my own agenda for the nth time. WAS knows what I think, now I will start working on myself." The second sentence is supposed to justify the first. -- IT DOESN'T-- Worse, the pair of sentences gets repeated over and over, day after day, week after week.

Back off. Stay backed off. Give the WAS all the physical and emotional space requested. This means probably 1000% of the space you think you need to give the WAS. Let WAS be the one to change the space.

Look, I think I skimmed a couple of your posts on the first page of this thread and the last page. YOU CONTINUE TO DO THE SAME THINGS. IT IS NOT WORKING. W EVEN TOLD YOU IT WAS PUSHING HER FARTHER AWAY.

Your repetitious self-interested pushing of your own agenda is self-destructive. Period. End of story. Stop it.

[Heimlich]

I probably should have shut up when we were attempting to fill in the mediation documents. Though she did actually open up and TELL me a few things about how she was feeling the way she's feeling. I think she's got her head in the ground and I just have a hard time believing she doesn't like me (though, i wasn't likable for a few years, as I've mentioned in earlier posts). The thing that bothers me the most is that she just hid her feelings and never told me. Now, she's finally being honest and says she is just done and can't see us ever being together. I have scarred her. Her acknowledgign that she hurt me too was a first. She brought up the pushing sex again, to which I responded you know that I feel close to you when we're intimate and that I only 'got off' when that's all you would give me and after a while that's all I'd get so i settled for it. It was never what I wanted and combined with me getting fat and being constantly rejected, really undermined by confidence. Also, I pushed a little too much in early winter as a way to hopefully use sex to reconnect (Which i said over and over, it's not about the sex, i'm trying to reconnect emotionally with you -- we just weren't hearing each other). I also said, I hope you could understand why I was feeling a little insecure, which was part of the reason I was pushing. And pushing is a little too strong, I was actually more respectful when she said no than i had been in a while. She just refuses to see that part of it. So, in some senses, this was the first time I told her explicitely how some of her actions made me feel. And she did acknowledge that. In the long run, might be a good thing. Probably not. WHo knows.

The second post, after I gave her my ring, was close to verbatim.

The only thing I left out was that I gave her the ring about two minutes before I spoke. When I gave it to her, I told her she was welcome to give it back to me any time she wanted to. Wasn't planned, totally spur of the moment. I had actually gone upstairs to rub some cortison on a bug bite. Decided to give her the ring. Then decided to say what I said.


And that was a very long response to a short question.

[Heimlich]

Your repetitious self-interested pushing of your own agenda is self-destructive. Period. End of story. Stop it.

Thanks OT. The worst part is you're right. And I knew that. And I know that. Could've used this whack a few weeks ago. Maybe you and Delia can alternate?

I don't regret giving her my ring or telling her what I said very briefly. The rest, yeah. I think I could have said what needed to be said once and much more briefly.

However, I feel calm for the first time in a while. Going back to past patterns of interaction in our R, part of me felt like I had to dig out her emotions and have her tell me how she felt.

Regardless, I'm done. She's known I've been in love with her for almost 17 years now. It'll be interesting to see how she feels as I treat her as a friend for the first time ever.

BD

[oldtimer]

Try taking all those things you think need to be said once and saving them up. Save them up for two weeks, put them aside for a week, then evaluate them. See which ones really need to be said.

My guess is close to ZERO will need to be said. They are all pursuing and pushing. I can't believe the sex issue came up again. On page one, you told her it wasn't about the sex when she said she felt pressure for sex, and in the same conversation talked about throwing her over your shoulder and ML twice. YES, that is pressure. How welcome would it be if your boss said those things to you? Would it be inappropriate pressure? Unwelcome sexual advances are ALWAYS inappropriate pressure.

Back off, all of it. Back off. There is nothing that "needs" to be said that cannot wait for three weeks -- two weeks saving up, one week cooling off.

[ItsKat]

I'm done talking.

You need to tattoo that sentence on the inside of your eyelids with glow-in-the-dark ink so that you are reminded every time you blink.

I think you are a smart guy, but when it comes to your sitch, you are panicking and acting out of emotion. As OT has said, it is not helping. Your W is either not ready to hear what you have to say or she just doesn't believe you right now. That is just where she is right now, and you need to accept that.

Stop telling her about all of the changes you are making. This is an example of something she is not ready to hear. Continue working on yourself and making the changes, but do not mention them. Let her discover them for herself. This is the only way she will be convinced of them.

I understand that you love your W, that you don't want your M to end, and that this whole thing just sucks. But you've got to stop doing things that are just digging your hole deeper. Focus on yourself. Make yourself a better, happier you. Your last post sounds like you are ready to do that, but make sure it sticks.

[Not Much Left]

Oldtimer
Cant help but wonder when you think it is Ok to "have a talk" with your spouse about where things are. Seems to me it ultimately has to happen, but it also seems to be the line in the sand many of us wonder when to cross.???