New and confused

[Nomopo]

Hi Puddle,

Nomopo, my DH hasn't said he's not attracted to me, but I'm pretty sure he feels it. Isn't that the whole lack of connection thing? If I were to ask him, he'd probably say he thinks I'm attractive, but he's not attracted. Make sense?

Yes, and my guess is he is not wanting to be intimate/connected right now, but some guys want sex any time and all the time regardless. And whether that is something you would be ok with is totally personal to you. Here is a link to something Michele wrote about sex with an estanged spouse to help you think about these issues: [url=]Link[/url]

Have you read DR? How many times? Where do you live?

Not yet; it's on the way. I hesitate to post online where I live, since I want to keep this private (in the public sense), no offense intended. Is there something about where I live that might affect posts or suggestions?

No offense taken. Only post it if and when you are comfortable. I think I asked because I was thinking it was a lot to respond to and somewhere down the road we might chat offline. I've made quite a few friends around here and some of communicate by email and phone. (In fact, seven of us met up in Orlando last weekend.) But that is not necessary at all. Privacy is very important.

If he does something like see someone else, you can tell him you don't agree with it, you think it is wrong and you aren't going to do it, but you realize you cannot control him and he is going to make his own decisions.

That is exactly what I think, but here's the question. If I say that to him, he will likely feel resentful. I obviously can't control that, but what about keeping the lines of communication open? I obviously can't stop him from doing whatever he's going to do, and I can't tell him to go with my blessings. Part of me is afraid that saying things like this will drive him out of the house, and part of me feels like he can't come back (if he's going to) until he leaves. That sounds like a zen principle (or a fortune cookie). Maybe I should start meditating.

Actually, makes sense. There are two approaches. One is to ignore it and not cause any tension. The other is to draw some boundaries, take some stands, state some principles, etc., but to do so calmly, and just for your own self respect and so they know where you are and/or what you are willing to live with and not live with. I don't think either is always right. It's personal. An example is my W was very afraid I was going to tell everyone about her A. She asked me to commit that I would never tell anyone. I said no. I have told my parents and brother for support. I have not told anyone because I am hoping she comes around. But I knew I couldn't promise her I would keep it to myself forever, so I didn't say that. She wasn't happy but I think she understood that was my line.

I think I'm still walking on eggshells in the honesty department. I've kept all my anger and hurt to myself since the first two talks, and that feels dishonest, so it's hard to figure out exactly where to be honest. He's clear that the marriage part of the marriage is over, so this all feels very clandestine to me. Coming out and telling him I think we should exhaust every possibility would frustrate him, as he sees none. He understands that I can't tell him it's okay with me, and says he can't expect that from me.

I think you have to keep your needs to yourself. Telling him you are hurt and angry is not going to accomplish much now. He doesn't care about your needs most likely, and can't help you get them met. Not if there is something business wise to be dealt with (finances, kids, living arrangements, etc.), discuss if you need to. Or if there is something that you want to take a stand on and you are willing to accept the consequences of taking the stand, go for it.

[quote=Nomopo]Are you willing to wait and fight for your M if he sees someone else? I am and have been, but it is hard. Personally, for the kids, I am still willing to wait. I won't wait forever, but I am still waiting for my W to come home. If it weren't for my kids, I don't know if I would still be putting up with this. It takes a long time and is very hard.

Good question. I feel like I am, that it almost has to happen, but it's a hell of a lot easier to say that now than it will be then. I stand in awe of your strength and endurance. Yet if you'd asked me six months ago how I would've responded to the bomb, I wouldn't have imagined I'd be as sane as I am now. I'm cultivating and counting on unplumbed depths of strength, and seeing people like you who've tapped in to them is inspiring, so thank you. And like you, if it weren't for the kids, I might very well have at least asked him to move out, eventually, anyway. I think your last sentence may be the understatement of the year.

It has gotten easier, but I still battle it frequently. Sometimes it feels like daily. But it probably isn't.

But I'd never thought about it in terms of DH. And sadly, I realize I have no idea what makes him feel loved, nor does he about me. I know that conversation is important to me; he calls it "blabbing at him about unimportant things." Ouch. Anyway, I need to figure this one out.

You're already on your way, and this is one of the positives that can come out of a terrible jolt like the one you have experienced. Did I ask if you had read 5LL? Sounds like you definitely should. Would be nice if H did too, but you can't really push that (yet).

Is the any JC or IC going on for either or both of you?

I recently left some absolutely rocking short-term counseling, very solution-based, and feel like it left me in really good stead to deal with this. I may go back to help sort this out. He'd been in long-term C, stopped a while ago, and recently went back to figure this stuff out. I have no idea where his C stands on this, but they have a good relationship, so there's nothing I can do there. He's not interested in JC.

Too bad. I was wondering if your SBOT C did couples too. If so, maybe you could get H to go see him/her at least once under the theory that C needs to see H and hear his side of the sotry she s/he can continue to help you. Then, and especially if H likes your C, you down the road might suggest that you and H go together to work on your communication and co-parenting skills which could lead to some couples therapy. You'll be in each other's lives forever anyway cause of the kids. That's how we got into it.

And even if he comes around, I know that will just be the beginning of a very, very long road.

Yes. Exhausting just thinking about it isn't it?

Patience, patience, patience.

The name of my thread!!!!

Yes, I know this is true. I've been working on the most obvious, easy changes so far, but I realize the big hard ones---the ones that might save our M even *after* he comes back (if he does)---are still waiting to be addressed. I'm trying to work on those.

Have you identified them?

He's much more confident than he's ever been, asks for what he wants (and is clear about what he wants, unfortunately for me), and is generally in a very take-charge place. This is beautiful to see in every other aspect of his life except our R.

Sounds like he feels he has all the leverage/power in the R right now. That is not healthy. You can take some back. One way is to focus on you and what you control, not what you don't control. Another is to take one of those stands or set a boundary, if there is one you want to set (but don't force it).

Build your picnic. Do you know the picnic/castle analogy?

No, please tell me about it.

Ok. Here's the idea. The WAS wants away from you. They need time and space. They have put up these huge walls because the are so hurt by all the awful things you, the LBS, did. (Just accept this as true. Remember, this is the WAS’s perspective.) So, it's like they are in a castle. No matter how hard you try to tear down the castle walls or break in (begging, pleading, crying, chasing, reasoning, guilting, etc.), you can't do it. All you can do is focus on you, and GAL. You have to "let them go" (to the castle really). Meanwhile, focusing on you and GALing, and being as happy, positive, upbeat, etc. as you can, is like setting up a picnic. A wonderful picnic! And because 99% of the time the WAS is noticing what you are doing (despite denials or acting to the contrary), it is like you set your picnic up right outside the castle walls.

Well, eventually (too long for most of us, so we have to be patient and keep at the picnic), the WAS becomes curious. You are looking good and look happy. And you are having fun. The WAS ventures closer and closer, to check things out. But they are skittish. If you jump up and start moving toward them (or even if you are too enthusiastic that the WAS is peaking out of the castle), they get frightened and run back in. You just have to keep eating the cheese and sipping your wine. Eventually, the WAS will come sit down for a bit. And then, all of a sudden, for no good reason (because you are, in fact, playing it cool and not chasing), the WAS still freaks out and runs back to the castle. They remember that they have decided to walk away, and they wonder why they are even at your silly picnic. Now, if you chase the WAS back to the castle (or even, gasp, pound on the door), the WAS will stay in there longer. Much longer. But if you just stay at your glorious picnic, eventually the WAS will wander back out again. And each time, they will stay a little longer, and be gone for less time. And then, success - they re-invest in the M! Make sense?

You are a very bright, sensitive woman. Believe it or not, no matter what happens, I believe you will be fine. In fact, you will be great.

Thanks, that gives me a big boost. Do you believe it about yourself?

Yes, I really do. But I still want to save my M very badly (not all that sure why), so I still worry about things too much. I am trying to detahc further, and care less. Isn't that sad?

But perhaps I should go out again, for my own sake and to show further that I'm okay?

I think so. GALing is good for many reasons, but one important one is if you can find something you are passionate about, it makes patience so much easier.

And second, I haven't shared what's going on with anyone but three close friends. Part of me is embarrassed, and part of me doesn't want to make it more "real" by telling the world. DH asked whom I've told, wanting to be sure I had someone to talk to. I have no idea whom he's told other than his C, his crush (I assume, since I haven't heard from her in a while), and a long-distance colleague (with whom he "feels a connection"---ugh) What have others done?

Personal deal. Our S is non-public, my W's choice. I think the key is you have someone to talk to and you do (three close friends and a C). Tell more if you want to - how about your family? Don't if you don't.

Nomopo, I am so grateful for the time you've given me. Your reminders and insights are more help than you can know, and I thank you. I'll look forward to hearing from you again.

My pleasure Puddle!

Nomo