New and confused

[Nomopo]

Hi Puddle. I am going to try to respond to your first and last posts. If there is something in between you want me to focus on, please let me know.

DH and I have been married 10 years (we're in our late 30s) and have two kids, 7 and 4.

Us too! I'm 39. W will be next month. We have a S7 and a D4.

DH told me last week that he's having doubts about our relationship.

Well there's a positive already. You found this site pretty early after the bomb. Good for you. Took me almost two years, and I regret it.

He cried, I cried, we hugged a lot. Ours is a marriage based primarily on a caring friendship---a good thing

He still cares for you in a way - hugs, crying. He i snot indifferent, so it could be worse. And the caring friendship is also very good. Wouldn't you want that (for your kids if nothing else) even if this ends in a D? And friendship has been the basis of many success stories around here.

since our sex life has been all but nonexistent for years (my drive's much lower, never really made much of an effort to change it, he pretty much gave up).

If you haven't, you need to focus on how this led to the two of you growing apart. Intimacy is important in most (if not all) Rs. So if you pulled away sexuallt, you need to think about an address those issues. My W did too. Physical touch (including sex) is my PLL, how I feel loved. (Have you read 5LL?) That may be true for your H too. If you reconcile, the two of you will need to address this, but you can work on the issue now for you and your next R (whether that is with H or not).

But now he has a crush on someone else, and he says he wonders if there isn't someone out there with whom he'd "click" more naturally, like the same music, etc.

As and OPs are very hard to deal with. It has been especially hard for me. My advice is to try not to focus on your H's OP (if there is one) too much, except to see what he is getting from or looking for in someone else, to see if that is part of the person you were and/or want to be (again).

He's wondering if he's staying with me because he "should," and is afraid he's missing out on something and will regret it later. He says he's trying to figure out what he really wants. Though he said, "I'm not going anywhere" and "I have no desire to reinvent my life," I pushed (gently and calmly, but yes, I pushed) with, "So are you saying you're not thinking of leaving?" to which he responded, "I don't know." He said he used to think we were so reasonable, having decided to be together not based on romantic ideas but because we love and respect each other, but now he's not so sure anymore.

You have to give him some time, space and independence to figure things out. It will feel like he is leaving you, but really he is deciding what he wants to do for himself. It could lead to a D but it might not. You have to trust him to work these issues out in a way that is best for him, while you spend that same time focusing on you. Hopefully, you meet back in the middle. You can, but you will need to manage emotions and be patient.

I will also say that he, like my W was/is, seems to think there are two choices: stay and be unhappy or leave and be happy. He is missing a third choice - work on things to try to become happy together. It might not work, but it could. Here's the catch - you cannot convince him of this. Telling him is very unlikely to work, and may push him further away. He has to sort it out. Don't initiate R talks. If he brings it up and presents that dual choice, you can tell him that you see a third option and that is what you prefer to do (for the kids, to be sure, whatever), but you understand he may not choose to do that. This is going to put pressure on him, and that is not ideal. You will be tempted to force this point/opportunity. Don't, but if it does "come to you," you can make that statement but be calm, try to be matter of fact, not arguing, pleading or reasoning about it. (You should read Michele's article (linked on the home page) For the Sake of the kids.)

He says since he doesn't know what he wants and can't point to anything "wrong" that we could work on, he's not ready to discuss it with me.

He'll let you know when he is ready. It may be a while, but time is on your side if you can take off the pressure, guilt, etc. so his defensive emotions can subside some and he can start to think clearly again.

I said some other things I realize since reading DB stuff that I wasn't supposed to say: I'm totally committed to our relationship and we need to work together, I'd stop anyone from hurting our children and never dreamed that person might be you, etc. He reassured me he'd take care of us financially and I hit the roof.

Yeah, don't do these things. Especially the thing about the kids. How in the world could you stop him anyway of that is what he decides? You can't. You can only control you.

Since the initial revelation, he's been varyingly friendly but distant or just distant---no more kisses goodbye, nicknames, etc. We had been switching off evenings, one out working and one with the kids, but since last week we've both been home. Tonight he told me he wanted to go out for a beer, asked if it was okay. I said sure, told him to have a good time.

It will be distant for a while, and may get more distant (or even a S) before it gets better. And he probably doesn't want to have to ask to go get a beer. Just an FYI. That's the independence thing.

I talked to a DB phone counselor who told me to reel myself right back to the here and now and stop catastrophizing, work on me, act as if. I'm totally down with the first two, but the latter is making me feel like a bit of a dip. I'm always fairly cheerful, so acting as if makes me feel like I look like I'm in denial or I don't care.

You got great advice - who is your coach? You have to be as if - so you can be attractive to H. Sad, depressed, pathetic and dependent is not attractive. Also, fake it until you make it. You will start to feel better slowly but surely. You are still early into all of this. Hang in there. Remember, time is on your side. (FWIW, you sound very good to be for being such a newbie.)

Am I seriously not supposed to be thinking about the possibility of him leaving? or just not talking about it with him?

It is the latter, at least initially. Eventually you will think of it less and that is often when they really start to come back around (so I have heard, and believe).

I spent a good long while today asking myself what I'm really afraid of, what do *I* want from life

These are excellent questions and they will help you become stronger and healthier.

could I ever stay with someone who would leave his children, which would cause me to lose all respect for him?

I don't care for this question so much (though I am sure I asked myself that question before). Look - put yourself in his shoes. He is likely very very very unhappy, hurt, angry or whatever. And he probably has serious doubts about fixing things (even he isn't convinced they can't be fixed). Now is he right - probably not, but you have to understand he most likely truly feels this way and has for some time. If you honestly felt that way, you would probably be asking yourself the same question Should he really have to be like that for the kids? And it you two really don't have a loving relationship, but just a platonic friendship, is that what you want to teach your kids about marriage and love? I know it will damage the kids - it has mine that we are S. But don't let your anger about that cloud what is happening and what may need to happen. The potential effect on them is tragic, but so is the effect on you having to hear that he doesn't love you, etc. He likely feels very guilty about it. Now, move past your anger about it and focus on what you can do for you (and, consequently, to save your M).

I'm not sure what to do except to experiment and observe.

Yep, a little stuff at first as far as between you and H. Mainly, focus on you.

The thing he seems to be lacking, "connection," is something he doesn't seem to want from me right now.

Right - give him time, space and independence. He wants it. He needs it. And focus on you. And GAL.

He did say he'd noticed my behavior changing but that it had utterly failed to touch him.

Utter BS. Keep it up. It will "touch him." That's classic alien spew. Ignore it completely and keep making changes for YOU. Those changes will also give you the best shot to save your M.

Will, I've been thinking a lot about what (if anything) to ask DH for right now. I just had a jarring talk with a friend who suggested I ask him to agree to hold off seeing anyone for one year to "give me a chance for this to sink in." I think if I asked him for a year to see if his feelings change---which is what I really mean---he wouldn't agree to that, and, in fact, I know that he doesn't want to miss an opportunity to "connect" with someone if he finds that person. I haven't asked for anything yet, I've been leaving it all up to him, but this talk freaked me out a little.

Do not ask him for this! It will not work! And it will likely make things worse. He will feel trapped. He will feel like you don't want him to be happy (I know - crazy, but that is likely how he is feeling.) Focus on you. BTW, your friend sounds like a civilian unfamiliar with DB. That kind of support can hurt your chances.

Hi Puddle. I am going to try to respond to your first and last posts. If there is something in between you want me to focus on, please let me know.

DH and I have been married 10 years (we're in our late 30s) and have two kids, 7 and 4.

Us too! I'm 39. W will be next month. We have a S7 and a D4.

DH told me last week that he's having doubts about our relationship.

Well there's a positive already. You found this site pretty early after the bomb. Good for you. Took me almost two years, and I regret it.

He cried, I cried, we hugged a lot. Ours is a marriage based primarily on a caring friendship---a good thing

He still cares for you in a way - hugs, crying. He i snot indifferent, so it could be worse. And the caring friendship is also very good. Wouldn't you want that (for your kids if nothing else) even if this ends in a D? And friendship has been the basis of many success stories around here.

since our sex life has been all but nonexistent for years (my drive's much lower, never really made much of an effort to change it, he pretty much gave up).

If you haven't, you need to focus on how this led to the two of you growing apart. Intimacy is important in most (if not all) Rs. So if you pulled away sexuallt, you need to think about an address those issues. My W did too. Physical touch (including sex) is my PLL, how I feel loved. (Have you read 5LL?) That may be true for your H too. If you reconcile, the two of you will need to address this, but you can work on the issue now for you and your next R (whether that is with H or not).

But now he has a crush on someone else, and he says he wonders if there isn't someone out there with whom he'd "click" more naturally, like the same music, etc.

As and OPs are very hard to deal with. It has been especially hard for me. My advice is to try not to focus on your H's OP (if there is one) too much, except to see what he is getting from or looking for in someone else, to see if that is part of the person you were and/or want to be (again).

He's wondering if he's staying with me because he "should," and is afraid he's missing out on something and will regret it later. He says he's trying to figure out what he really wants. Though he said, "I'm not going anywhere" and "I have no desire to reinvent my life," I pushed (gently and calmly, but yes, I pushed) with, "So are you saying you're not thinking of leaving?" to which he responded, "I don't know." He said he used to think we were so reasonable, having decided to be together not based on romantic ideas but because we love and respect each other, but now he's not so sure anymore.

You have to give him some time, space and independence to figure things out. It will feel like he is leaving you, but really he is deciding what he wants to do for himself. It could lead to a D but it might not. You have to trust him to work these issues out in a way that is best for him, while you spend that same time focusing on you. Hopefully, you meet back in the middle. You can, but you will need to manage emotions and be patient.

I will also say that he, like my W was/is, seems to think there are two choices: stay and be unhappy or leave and be happy. He is missing a third choice - work on things to try to become happy together. It might not work, but it could. Here's the catch - you cannot convince him of this. Telling him is very unlikely to work, and may push him further away. He has to sort it out. Don't initiate R talks. If he brings it up and presents that dual choice, you can tell him that you see a third option and that is what you prefer to do (for the kids, to be sure, whatever), but you understand he may not choose to do that. This is going to put pressure on him, and that is not ideal. You will be tempted to force this point/opportunity. Don't, but if it does "come to you," you can make that statement but be calm, try to be matter of fact, not arguing, pleading or reasoning about it. (You should read Michele's article (linked on the home page) For the Sake of the kids.)

He says since he doesn't know what he wants and can't point to anything "wrong" that we could work on, he's not ready to discuss it with me.

He'll let you know when he is ready. It may be a while, but time is on your side if you can take off the pressure, guilt, etc. so his defensive emotions can subside some and he can start to think clearly again.

I said some other things I realize since reading DB stuff that I wasn't supposed to say: I'm totally committed to our relationship and we need to work together, I'd stop anyone from hurting our children and never dreamed that person might be you, etc. He reassured me he'd take care of us financially and I hit the roof.

Yeah, don't do these things. Especially the thing about the kids. How in the world could you stop him anyway of that is what he decides? You can't. You can only control you.

Since the initial revelation, he's been varyingly friendly but distant or just distant---no more kisses goodbye, nicknames, etc. We had been switching off evenings, one out working and one with the kids, but since last week we've both been home. Tonight he told me he wanted to go out for a beer, asked if it was okay. I said sure, told him to have a good time.

It will be distant for a while, and may get more distant (or even a S) before it gets better. And he probably doesn't want to have to ask to go get a beer. Just an FYI. That's the independence thing.

I talked to a DB phone counselor who told me to reel myself right back to the here and now and stop catastrophizing, work on me, act as if. I'm totally down with the first two, but the latter is making me feel like a bit of a dip. I'm always fairly cheerful, so acting as if makes me feel like I look like I'm in denial or I don't care.

You got great advice - who is your coach? You have to be as if - so you can be attractive to H. Sad, depressed, pathetic and dependent is not attractive. Also, fake it until you make it. You will start to feel better slowly but surely. You are still early into all of this. Hang in there. Remember, time is on your side. (FWIW, you sound very good to be for being such a newbie.)

Am I seriously not supposed to be thinking about the possibility of him leaving? or just not talking about it with him?

It is the latter, at least initially. Eventually you will think of it less and that is often when they really start to come back around (so I have heard, and believe).

I spent a good long while today asking myself what I'm really afraid of, what do *I* want from life

These are excellent questions and they will help you become stronger and healthier.

could I ever stay with someone who would leave his children, which would cause me to lose all respect for him?

I don't care for this question so much (though I am sure I asked myself that question before). Look - put yourself in his shoes. He is likely very very very unhappy, hurt, angry or whatever. And he probably has serious doubts about fixing things (even he isn't convinced they can't be fixed). Now is he right - probably not, but you have to understand he most likely truly feels this way and has for some time. If you honestly felt that way, you would probably be asking yourself the same question Should he really have to be like that for the kids? And it you two really don't have a loving relationship, but just a platonic friendship, is that what you want to teach your kids about marriage and love? I know it will damage the kids - it has mine that we are S. But don't let your anger about that cloud what is happening and what may need to happen. The potential effect on them is tragic, but so is the effect on you having to hear that he doesn't love you, etc. He likely feels very guilty about it. Now, move past your anger about it and focus on what you can do for you (and, consequently, to save your M).

I'm not sure what to do except to experiment and observe.

Yep, a little stuff at first as far as between you and H. Mainly, focus on you.

The thing he seems to be lacking, "connection," is something he doesn't seem to want from me right now.

Right - give him time, space and independence. He wants it. He needs it. And focus on you. And GAL.

He did say he'd noticed my behavior changing but that it had utterly failed to touch him.

Utter BS. Keep it up. It will "touch him." That's classic alien spew. Ignore it completely and keep making changes for YOU. Those changes will also give you the best shot to save your M.

We're in a friendly spot right now: DH is feeling relieved since he's come clean and I've got ahold of myself. I'm not ready to ask for anything, haven't thought about it enough. What have others done?

Don't ask for anything right now. Your needs have to go on hold for quite a while. Sorry, but true. He is not interested in meeting your emotional, R needs now. If you need something for the kids ok, or financially, ok, but only if important enough and business. No R Talks!!!!

BTW, the friendly spot is good. You want friendly, stress-free interactions with him now. He is deciding whether or not to walk away for good. When he makes that decision, you want him to have positive associations/iamges of you in his mind. Make sense?

Hi Puddle. I am going to try to respond to your first and last posts. If there is something in between you want me to focus on, please let me know.

DH and I have been married 10 years (we're in our late 30s) and have two kids, 7 and 4.

Us too! I'm 39. W will be next month. We have a S7 and a D4.

DH told me last week that he's having doubts about our relationship.

Well there's a positive already. You found this site pretty early after the bomb. Good for you. Took me almost two years, and I regret it.

He cried, I cried, we hugged a lot. Ours is a marriage based primarily on a caring friendship---a good thing

He still cares for you in a way - hugs, crying. He i snot indifferent, so it could be worse. And the caring friendship is also very good. Wouldn't you want that (for your kids if nothing else) even if this ends in a D? And friendship has been the basis of many success stories around here.

since our sex life has been all but nonexistent for years (my drive's much lower, never really made much of an effort to change it, he pretty much gave up).

If you haven't, you need to focus on how this led to the two of you growing apart. Intimacy is important in most (if not all) Rs. So if you pulled away sexuallt, you need to think about an address those issues. My W did too. Physical touch (including sex) is my PLL, how I feel loved. (Have you read 5LL?) That may be true for your H too. If you reconcile, the two of you will need to address this, but you can work on the issue now for you and your next R (whether that is with H or not).

But now he has a crush on someone else, and he says he wonders if there isn't someone out there with whom he'd "click" more naturally, like the same music, etc.

As and OPs are very hard to deal with. It has been especially hard for me. My advice is to try not to focus on your H's OP (if there is one) too much, except to see what he is getting from or looking for in someone else, to see if that is part of the person you were and/or want to be (again).

He's wondering if he's staying with me because he "should," and is afraid he's missing out on something and will regret it later. He says he's trying to figure out what he really wants. Though he said, "I'm not going anywhere" and "I have no desire to reinvent my life," I pushed (gently and calmly, but yes, I pushed) with, "So are you saying you're not thinking of leaving?" to which he responded, "I don't know." He said he used to think we were so reasonable, having decided to be together not based on romantic ideas but because we love and respect each other, but now he's not so sure anymore.

You have to give him some time, space and independence to figure things out. It will feel like he is leaving you, but really he is deciding what he wants to do for himself. It could lead to a D but it might not. You have to trust him to work these issues out in a way that is best for him, while you spend that same time focusing on you. Hopefully, you meet back in the middle. You can, but you will need to manage emotions and be patient.

I will also say that he, like my W was/is, seems to think there are two choices: stay and be unhappy or leave and be happy. He is missing a third choice - work on things to try to become happy together. It might not work, but it could. Here's the catch - you cannot convince him of this. Telling him is very unlikely to work, and may push him further away. He has to sort it out. Don't initiate R talks. If he brings it up and presents that dual choice, you can tell him that you see a third option and that is what you prefer to do (for the kids, to be sure, whatever), but you understand he may not choose to do that. This is going to put pressure on him, and that is not ideal. You will be tempted to force this point/opportunity. Don't, but if it does "come to you," you can make that statement but be calm, try to be matter of fact, not arguing, pleading or reasoning about it. (You should read Michele's article (linked on the home page) For the Sake of the kids.)

He says since he doesn't know what he wants and can't point to anything "wrong" that we could work on, he's not ready to discuss it with me.

He'll let you know when he is ready. It may be a while, but time is on your side if you can take off the pressure, guilt, etc. so his defensive emotions can subside some and he can start to think clearly again.

I said some other things I realize since reading DB stuff that I wasn't supposed to say: I'm totally committed to our relationship and we need to work together, I'd stop anyone from hurting our children and never dreamed that person might be you, etc. He reassured me he'd take care of us financially and I hit the roof.

Yeah, don't do these things. Especially the thing about the kids. How in the world could you stop him anyway of that is what he decides? You can't. You can only control you.

Since the initial revelation, he's been varyingly friendly but distant or just distant---no more kisses goodbye, nicknames, etc. We had been switching off evenings, one out working and one with the kids, but since last week we've both been home. Tonight he told me he wanted to go out for a beer, asked if it was okay. I said sure, told him to have a good time.

It will be distant for a while, and may get more distant (or even a S) before it gets better. And he probably doesn't want to have to ask to go get a beer. Just an FYI. That's the independence thing.

I talked to a DB phone counselor who told me to reel myself right back to the here and now and stop catastrophizing, work on me, act as if. I'm totally down with the first two, but the latter is making me feel like a bit of a dip. I'm always fairly cheerful, so acting as if makes me feel like I look like I'm in denial or I don't care.

You got great advice - who is your coach? You have to be as if - so you can be attractive to H. Sad, depressed, pathetic and dependent is not attractive. Also, fake it until you make it. You will start to feel better slowly but surely. You are still early into all of this. Hang in there. Remember, time is on your side. (FWIW, you sound very good to be for being such a newbie.)

Am I seriously not supposed to be thinking about the possibility of him leaving? or just not talking about it with him?

It is the latter, at least initially. Eventually you will think of it less and that is often when they really start to come back around (so I have heard, and believe).

I spent a good long while today asking myself what I'm really afraid of, what do *I* want from life

These are excellent questions and they will help you become stronger and healthier.

could I ever stay with someone who would leave his children, which would cause me to lose all respect for him?

I don't care for this question so much (though I am sure I asked myself that question before). Look - put yourself in his shoes. He is likely very very very unhappy, hurt, angry or whatever. And he probably has serious doubts about fixing things (even he isn't convinced they can't be fixed). Now is he right - probably not, but you have to understand he most likely truly feels this way and has for some time. If you honestly felt that way, you would probably be asking yourself the same question Should he really have to be like that for the kids? And it you two really don't have a loving relationship, but just a platonic friendship, is that what you want to teach your kids about marriage and love? I know it will damage the kids - it has mine that we are S. But don't let your anger about that cloud what is happening and what may need to happen. The potential effect on them is tragic, but so is the effect on you having to hear that he doesn't love you, etc. He likely feels very guilty about it. Now, move past your anger about it and focus on what you can do for you (and, consequently, to save your M).

I'm not sure what to do except to experiment and observe.

Yep, a little stuff at first as far as between you and H. Mainly, focus on you.

The thing he seems to be lacking, "connection," is something he doesn't seem to want from me right now.

Right - give him time, space and independence. He wants it. He needs it. And focus on you. And GAL.

He did say he'd noticed my behavior changing but that it had utterly failed to touch him.

Utter BS. Keep it up. It will "touch him." That's classic alien spew. Ignore it completely and keep making changes for YOU. Those changes will also give you the best shot to save your M.

The other thing my friend mentioned was making sure that the kids and I are provided for financially. I don't think DH has thought that far ahead (I know I haven't!), says he'd be sure we were fine, but I don't think he's considered the possibility that he may be responsible for two households (his and ours), and if he meets someone else and wants to begin a family, his promise to take care of us might not seem so attractive (especially to another partner).

Is there some reason you need to bring this up now? Don't force things. Be patient. Your friend sounds like s/he is trying to scare or shock H into comong around. It won't work, and might her. And if it did work, would you feel secure in your M? No. You want him back for the right reasons, and when he is sure, and when he has worked through all his issues.

Hi Puddle. I am going to try to respond to your first and last posts. If there is something in between you want me to focus on, please let me know.

DH and I have been married 10 years (we're in our late 30s) and have two kids, 7 and 4.

Us too! I'm 39. W will be next month. We have a S7 and a D4.

DH told me last week that he's having doubts about our relationship.

Well there's a positive already. You found this site pretty early after the bomb. Good for you. Took me almost two years, and I regret it.

He cried, I cried, we hugged a lot. Ours is a marriage based primarily on a caring friendship---a good thing

He still cares for you in a way - hugs, crying. He i snot indifferent, so it could be worse. And the caring friendship is also very good. Wouldn't you want that (for your kids if nothing else) even if this ends in a D? And friendship has been the basis of many success stories around here.

since our sex life has been all but nonexistent for years (my drive's much lower, never really made much of an effort to change it, he pretty much gave up).

If you haven't, you need to focus on how this led to the two of you growing apart. Intimacy is important in most (if not all) Rs. So if you pulled away sexuallt, you need to think about an address those issues. My W did too. Physical touch (including sex) is my PLL, how I feel loved. (Have you read 5LL?) That may be true for your H too. If you reconcile, the two of you will need to address this, but you can work on the issue now for you and your next R (whether that is with H or not).

But now he has a crush on someone else, and he says he wonders if there isn't someone out there with whom he'd "click" more naturally, like the same music, etc.

As and OPs are very hard to deal with. It has been especially hard for me. My advice is to try not to focus on your H's OP (if there is one) too much, except to see what he is getting from or looking for in someone else, to see if that is part of the person you were and/or want to be (again).

He's wondering if he's staying with me because he "should," and is afraid he's missing out on something and will regret it later. He says he's trying to figure out what he really wants. Though he said, "I'm not going anywhere" and "I have no desire to reinvent my life," I pushed (gently and calmly, but yes, I pushed) with, "So are you saying you're not thinking of leaving?" to which he responded, "I don't know." He said he used to think we were so reasonable, having decided to be together not based on romantic ideas but because we love and respect each other, but now he's not so sure anymore.

You have to give him some time, space and independence to figure things out. It will feel like he is leaving you, but really he is deciding what he wants to do for himself. It could lead to a D but it might not. You have to trust him to work these issues out in a way that is best for him, while you spend that same time focusing on you. Hopefully, you meet back in the middle. You can, but you will need to manage emotions and be patient.

I will also say that he, like my W was/is, seems to think there are two choices: stay and be unhappy or leave and be happy. He is missing a third choice - work on things to try to become happy together. It might not work, but it could. Here's the catch - you cannot convince him of this. Telling him is very unlikely to work, and may push him further away. He has to sort it out. Don't initiate R talks. If he brings it up and presents that dual choice, you can tell him that you see a third option and that is what you prefer to do (for the kids, to be sure, whatever), but you understand he may not choose to do that. This is going to put pressure on him, and that is not ideal. You will be tempted to force this point/opportunity. Don't, but if it does "come to you," you can make that statement but be calm, try to be matter of fact, not arguing, pleading or reasoning about it. (You should read Michele's article (linked on the home page) For the Sake of the kids.)

He says since he doesn't know what he wants and can't point to anything "wrong" that we could work on, he's not ready to discuss it with me.

He'll let you know when he is ready. It may be a while, but time is on your side if you can take off the pressure, guilt, etc. so his defensive emotions can subside some and he can start to think clearly again.

I said some other things I realize since reading DB stuff that I wasn't supposed to say: I'm totally committed to our relationship and we need to work together, I'd stop anyone from hurting our children and never dreamed that person might be you, etc. He reassured me he'd take care of us financially and I hit the roof.

Yeah, don't do these things. Especially the thing about the kids. How in the world could you stop him anyway of that is what he decides? You can't. You can only control you.

Since the initial revelation, he's been varyingly friendly but distant or just distant---no more kisses goodbye, nicknames, etc. We had been switching off evenings, one out working and one with the kids, but since last week we've both been home. Tonight he told me he wanted to go out for a beer, asked if it was okay. I said sure, told him to have a good time.

It will be distant for a while, and may get more distant (or even a S) before it gets better. And he probably doesn't want to have to ask to go get a beer. Just an FYI. That's the independence thing.

I talked to a DB phone counselor who told me to reel myself right back to the here and now and stop catastrophizing, work on me, act as if. I'm totally down with the first two, but the latter is making me feel like a bit of a dip. I'm always fairly cheerful, so acting as if makes me feel like I look like I'm in denial or I don't care.

You got great advice - who is your coach? You have to be as if - so you can be attractive to H. Sad, depressed, pathetic and dependent is not attractive. Also, fake it until you make it. You will start to feel better slowly but surely. You are still early into all of this. Hang in there. Remember, time is on your side. (FWIW, you sound very good to be for being such a newbie.)

Am I seriously not supposed to be thinking about the possibility of him leaving? or just not talking about it with him?

It is the latter, at least initially. Eventually you will think of it less and that is often when they really start to come back around (so I have heard, and believe).

I spent a good long while today asking myself what I'm really afraid of, what do *I* want from life

These are excellent questions and they will help you become stronger and healthier.

could I ever stay with someone who would leave his children, which would cause me to lose all respect for him?

I don't care for this question so much (though I am sure I asked myself that question before). Look - put yourself in his shoes. He is likely very very very unhappy, hurt, angry or whatever. And he probably has serious doubts about fixing things (even he isn't convinced they can't be fixed). Now is he right - probably not, but you have to understand he most likely truly feels this way and has for some time. If you honestly felt that way, you would probably be asking yourself the same question Should he really have to be like that for the kids? And it you two really don't have a loving relationship, but just a platonic friendship, is that what you want to teach your kids about marriage and love? I know it will damage the kids - it has mine that we are S. But don't let your anger about that cloud what is happening and what may need to happen. The potential effect on them is tragic, but so is the effect on you having to hear that he doesn't love you, etc. He likely feels very guilty about it. Now, move past your anger about it and focus on what you can do for you (and, consequently, to save your M).

I'm not sure what to do except to experiment and observe.

Yep, a little stuff at first as far as between you and H. Mainly, focus on you.

The thing he seems to be lacking, "connection," is something he doesn't seem to want from me right now.

Right - give him time, space and independence. He wants it. He needs it. And focus on you. And GAL.

He did say he'd noticed my behavior changing but that it had utterly failed to touch him.

Utter BS. Keep it up. It will "touch him." That's classic alien spew. Ignore it completely and keep making changes for YOU. Those changes will also give you the best shot to save your M.

What have others (especially non-bread winners) done about this?

It would not be crazy at all to consult a lawyer (or internet websites) to learn your rights in the event of a D. You should be prepared. But you should do this on your own, for your own info, and not bring it up with H until you have to or he does, and even then you pretty much listen to him rather than sharing info with him and trying to influence/scare/control him.

Hope it helps Puddle. Hang in there, ok?
Nomo

PS - and keep posting and reading and learning. You're doing fine, and you will be fine. No, you'll be great (believe it or not).

[Nomopo]

oops. sorry. double post.

[sandi2]

Hi, I join the others saying that I'm sorry to find you here but I'm glad you found us. If that makes sense.

I wrote you ....then deleted everything I had said and thought, "I can't send her that!" Well, I'm gonna do it anyway.

If I were in your shoes, I think I know what I would do. Isn't that always the case? Now, if only I could fix ME, I would be fine.

Seriously, I too have had the sex problem over the years. My H never had enough and I had to nearly make myself do it to make him happy. (Don't tell the other men I said this, cause they hate to hear stuff like this!) Well, gee, that didn't sound too nice, did it? Well, I mean my friends on here. Oh well, you know what I mean.

Anyway, do you remember how we were when we were in high school and wanted to get a boy's attention? How old did you say you were? Frankly, I'm so old that the times have really changed, but, I don't think human nature has changed. God put something in us females that is a grand thing. Men think we use it as a weapon, but never the less, it's pretty special. Now, I'm sounding real flippant and crazy but I'm just trying to make you feel better, b/c I really do identify with the sexual part. But honey, if you want that man of yours to stay....you've got what it takes to get him to stay home...you've just got to remember how to use it!

In my day, they use to call it "playing hard to get"....which gives you an idea of how old I am! Anyway, I still believe in its effectiveness.

First, you've got to drop the "poor me" image and get dolled up, spurced up, total make-over....whatever it takes. Get some spunk, attitude, and pride! Make coming home the most fun part of his day and don't talk about anything serious. Act cheerful (I know, you don't feel it...get over it.), flirt, flirt, and flirt some more. Do you remember how to do the "eye" thing? OK! Don't hang on to him....don't you dare chase him....don't ask any of those "you-know-what" questions to agravate him, don't act like a "slave" and wait hand & foot on him...but at the same time, be polite and if you want to do something special.......oh, you get the drift.

You set the attitude in your home! Even if he comes home grumpy, you have the power to turn it around. Really! But sweetie, you've got to work you yourself. I know you are dying inside. I know you are scared to death. Don't make him feel sorry for you or make him feel guilty.....he'll hate you for it. Don't use the kids.....it'll make things worse.

Show him the beautiful, soft, gentle, sweet woman you are. Belive it, yourself, and it will shine through. Then, he will see it and it will turn him on...trust me on this one.

Now, I know I say all this to you so easily.......but you see the truth is....I'm in the other boat. Yeah, it's tough. I was the one that wanted to leave. My sweet H has been hurt so badly by me. I disappointed him, betrayed him, broke his trust in me......was unfaithful in my heart (had an EA) and lied to him....I think I'll stop on that one....but you get the picture. I wish I could feel for my H what you feel for yours. I am trying hard and trusting that soon I will begin to have those positive feelings again. Just wanted you to know that I don't have all the answers and I have my own share of troubles.

With all my heart, I wish and pray for your success and I believe you can do it. You must believe in yourself. Not only has God given women the sexual power (if you will), but He has given women all the qualities that men love. Use those things girl!

Let me hear from you. I really care.

Sandi2

[Puddle]

Hi Nomopo,

Thanks for responding, and so thoroughly (triply!). Sounds like we have a lot in common, and I value your thoughts. I was especially glad to have a response to the question about what I should ask for, if anything. That one really has me stumped. And just today I was trying to put myself in his shoes to get some perspective and see if I could empathize. I don't want him to be unhappy, and he is. It's very hard to set aside the hurt that what's making him unhappy is the fact that he doesn't want to be with me, but I'm working on it. So thanks for that reminder.

Here's a brief update on where we are. After that last talk when he essentially said he wants me to let him out of his marital obligations---doesn't want to be physical, wants to be free to pursue others---he's been only friendly and considerate. Now that he's got that off his chest and knows I'm not going to lose it and throw him out, he tells me how grateful he is to me, what a wonderful mother, friend, and partner I am, hugs me, carreses my face (something he hasn't done in eons) etc.

I'm having a hard time with the hugging. I don't want to be consoled by him, but don't want him to feel rejected or distant. Who would've believed I'd complain about hugging? I'm working on it.

Re asking to go for a beer: We've both always checked with the other out of common courtesy, since the one left at home is responsible for the kids. Here's the new part, though: Last night around 11 he asked if I minded if he went out for a couple of hours. I said of course not, and he hugged me and told me he thinks I'm going so easy on him. But then when I realized what time it was, I went back and said, you know, I actually do mind. It's late, and I'm uncomfortable with that. And I'm telling you that to be honest, and if you go, enjoy (not sarcastically). He said he hadn't realized it was so late and he wouldn't go.

He then asked me what I thought about being honest in regards to another person, that he's always thought the person "cheating" was honest (when they were) for their own sake, and it didn't do anything for the other. I told him I'd also thought about that and don't have a clear standpoint. Then I told him I'd like a bit of time before he starts something with someone else, that he's been in this place in his head for a long time but it's all very new to me. He said of course, he understands, he's not planning on jumping into another relationship. So I didn't ask for a year or any specific amount of time, I just told him I need to adjust. What do you think of that one? Too honest? Should I just have kept my mouth shut and let him go? My issue was I'd said so casually, sure, go ahead, and it felt too false.

I just feel like there's no playbook for this one. He's always gone out a few nights a week and will continue to. We seem to have agreed that we'll continue to live together and sleep in the same bed, essentially do everything we were doing before (except be sexual), while having a different understanding of what that means. Now, I definitely see the upside of this---he's still here, we're on good terms, he seems to feel closer to me than he has in a long time---and maybe I should just leave it at that.

What do you think about the talking part? I certainly don't want details of his infatuations, but I want to keep the lines of communication as open as they can be. How is a DBer supposed to respond to those things? Probably just listen. God knows I can't be enthusiastic about it. Maybe if he tries again I should just say he can tell me anything.

And the caring friendship is also very good. Wouldn't you want that (for your kids if nothing else) even if this ends in a D?

Yes, certainly. That's part of the reason the financial questions bother me so much. I can imagine them having a big impact on our R, potentially more than his emotional stuff.

If you haven't, you need to focus on how this led to the two of you growing apart. Intimacy is important in most (if not all) Rs. So if you pulled away sexuallt, you need to think about an address those issues. My W did too. Physical touch (including sex) is my PLL, how I feel loved. (Have you read 5LL?) That may be true for your H too. If you reconcile, the two of you will need to address this, but you can work on the issue now for you and your next R (whether that is with H or not).

I get this, and ironically it's something I'd been working on before the bomb. But now I get it in a different way, because it's much more about me now---it's taken the focus on making DH happy. This is my biggest long-term work in progress. And I just ordered the 5LL.

I will also say that he, like my W was/is, seems to think there are two choices: stay and be unhappy or leave and be happy. He is missing a third choice - work on things to try to become happy together.

I think he thinks he can stay and be unhappy and leave and potentially be happy. He gave me the "I might die alone" line the other night. There's no one waiting in the wings offering him the promise of happiness, and as far as working on himself, he seems to believe he's reached the place where he's finally in touch with himself and realizes he wants out. He's a very introspective guy, utterly without defensiveness, and feels like he's reached a good place. Ouch. I know that this sense of freedom is new for him, and I think he's going to be content there for a while.

Don't initiate R talks. If he brings it up and presents that dual choice, you can tell him that you see a third option and that is what you prefer to do (for the kids, to be sure, whatever), but you understand he may not choose to do that.

I am initiating zero R talks. In fact, the other day he asked if I was "finally ready to talk." Funny. I don't think he's ready to hear the third-option talk yet. He seems very concerned that I might be harboring false hopes, and needs to know that I'm not. So if I were to say this to him, he wouldn't react well.

You got great advice - who is your coach?

Dottie.

You have to be as if - so you can be attractive to H. Sad, depressed, pathetic and dependent is not attractive. Also, fake it until you make it. You will start to feel better slowly but surely. You are still early into all of this. Hang in there. Remember, time is on your side.

Thanks, I'm working on this one. Mondays are the hardest, when he's back at work, and I just finished a big project and am a bit at loose ends right now. He commented the other day (after the talk, when he was already feeling good) that he's happy to see me doing what I'm doing, wearing the clothes I'm wearing (huh?), etc. He's noticed, at the very least. And yes, still very early, which is frightening beyond belief. I guess people really can adjust to anything.

(FWIW, you sound very good to be for being such a newbie.)

That's really nice to hear, thanks.

Is there some reason you need to bring this up now? Don't force things. Be patient. Your friend sounds like s/he is trying to scare or shock H into coming around.

No reason to bring money up now. My friend mentioning it just gave me a reality check. I know he means right now with all his heart that he'd take care of us, but in light of the trust issues going on for me right now, it feels foolish to rely on it. When is the right time to talk about those things? When I've given up on the M? And my friend wasn't suggesting shocking him, I don't think, but she's very concerned that we not get left in the lurch.

It would not be crazy at all to consult a lawyer (or internet websites) to learn your rights in the event of a D. You should be prepared. But you should do this on your own, for your own info, and not bring it up with H until you have to or he does, and even then you pretty much listen to him rather than sharing info with him and trying to influence/scare/control him.

Sometimes I just can't believe I'm having to think about things like this. But yes, I agree, information is important, just for my own sake. I don't want my head in the sand. He also said he'd love me forever, blah blah blah.

Re thinking ahead, which I'm trying not to do except to be sure I'm not blindsided like I have been. My DH hasn't mentioned D or moving out, and I honestly don't think he's thought about it. (Could be wrong, see above...) So I feel like we're very much in limbo, though for him I think this is our new life. I don't want to ask him how he imagines this going forward, but I'm sure curious what he's thinking. We're talking about adding onto our house, for goodness sake. I'm very, very confused on this point.

Thanks again, Nomopo, for your insight and encouragement. I'll look forward to hearing what you have to say about the new stuff. I wish you well.

[Puddle]

Hey Sandi2,

You crack me up! Yes, I have all those God-given things, and they work on many, many people, but for some reason not DH (yet). And I am getting all dolled up---makes me feel better---and he's noticed. Your post reminded me that a couple months ago, before all this, I was going out one night and DH said, "Why don't you ever get dressed up for me?" Now I hear him. Check. It's always other people who make me feel attractive, though, not him. (What I want out of an R, check.)

But seriously, thank you. I have a smile on my face now, just in time for DH to come home. Thanks for stopping by!

[sandi2]

Hi back at ya Puddle,

Let me tell you something I did years ago and it was a blast! One morning I saw my H leave for work and he seemed like he just dreaded facing the day. So, I immediately got busy and cleaned up the house, made arrangements for the kids to spend the night with grandparents, and went and bought the most outragious outfit I could find (well...for me it was). Shorts and a halter top was as sexy as I dared....lol. Anyway, I set candles around and tried to set the front room in some kind of "theme"....just can't remember what it was....but anyway, when H came in the back door, I was all poised like a model when he walked in. He dropped his lunch (and nearly his teeth) when he saw me! It just made all the difference in the world in his feelings, I can tell you that! But, we had so much fun that night.

And old concept that went out of style, I guess, but worked for me in keeping excitment in the M, was a book that I doubt is even in print now. It was called "The Total Woman". I got a lot of ideas from her and they were fun, too.

I know that coming home to an attractive wife means an awful lot to a H. If we just doll up when we are going out or know somebody is coming over....he knows it's not for him. However, if we are cute just for him...he loves it! It's hard to do it and especially when there are kids around, but fixing up for him every day just in time for his homecoming....will mean the world of difference. And, like you said, it makes you feel better.....and something else...we usually act better also. I found that dressing up in "costumes" is so much fun! Oh the stories I could tell! (But you want to be sure the kids are gone!)

It sounds like your H may be a bit bored. No offense intended...it happens to the best of us. When we have to do all the things women, wives, and mothers have to do these days...there is hardly any energy left to wash our face and go to bed. No wonder women don't have the desire for sex at night! Seriously, it does effect the libido.

It works both ways, really. My problems began when I became bored. It's a very long story, so I won't get into it. But, with age and health problems, I was not able to do the things to stay busy like I once did. Anyway, the breakdown started becasue I was lonely and bored. That's when I discovered the games over the internet and IM and soon chat rooms. One thing led to another and then I was chatting with men and then I really got into trouble. So,you see sweetie, bordom is a serious problem for either gender.

I bet you have a good imagination. You certainly have the challenge and the desire to wake up your R. Why not try some fun things and just see what happens? If you are too leary about going over-board....then just keep it "light and fun". What I'm saying is that men don't want to come home and face problems b/c most of them have to deal with problems all day long on the job. They are ready for rest, food, fun, and most of all......sex. Yep! That's about it for them....doesn't take much! (lol)

Sweetie, you talk to me all you want. I have found that it helps when I feel weak or (in my case....tempted) or discouraged, just get on board here and start reading other posts or start writing about my day and how I'm feeling.

By the way, you would be surprised at how many people on here read what you say, but may never respond. Also, you would be surprised to know how many people may be helped by what you say.

Stay strong and talk anytime.

Sandi2

[Nomopo]

Hi Puddle:

I hope you are doing well. Before I respond to your post back to me, let me just say that I do not know if what Sandi suggests will work. I think every sitch is different, and not all men would react the same. Some WASs are so hurt and far gone that an attempt like she suggests could just push them farther away. They might also see it as not genuine, and as an attempt to manipulate them. I don't get the sense your H is as far gone as some, as I don't believe he has said he isn't attracted to you, etc., but you will have to decide what you think is best. DBing would say the only wrong button is the one you push over and over that doesn't work, and don't be afraid to try something and get bad results. If you try it, and it doesn't work, you can always stop and the damage is not likely to be fatal. So, it's up to you. If you do try to initiate sex or flirt or whatever, and if he says something like this isn't genuine or you are trying to manipulate me, I would simply say that "No, I realize I made a mistake in not being more affectionate before, and I am sorry. And I would like to try to correct that mistake if and when you are ready, but my feelings/desire are genuine." Or something like that.

Now, on to your post back to me. A couple of preliminary questions - sorry if I forgot. Have you read DR? How many times? Where do you live?

It's very hard to set aside the hurt that what's making him unhappy is the fact that he doesn't want to be with me, but I'm working on it.

It is so hard, but you have to do it. I know you can and will.

he tells me how grateful he is to me, what a wonderful mother, friend, and partner I am, hugs me, carreses my face (something he hasn't done in eons) etc. I'm having a hard time with the hugging. I don't want to be consoled by him, but don't want him to feel rejected or distant.

These are all good things. He still cares for you at some level. Don't reject that. Don't force it either. Follow his lead. Loving and nurturing behavior breeds loving and nurturing feelings. If you act in loving ways, you will feel loving towards someone, so don't try to shut him down on this. I cannot stress this enough. Things may get worse before they get better, so this opportunity may not always be there, but enjoy it and use it to advance your goal of saving the M while you can.

Who would've believed I'd complain about hugging? I'm working on it.

I understand why. You are hurting right now. But try to put your needs on the back burner. This is so hard and unfair, but will be best for your sitch and you and H in the long term. Enjoy that he still cares enough to hug you. Many of us do not even have that much to cling too. Also, be prepared for a day when he might not feel like hugging. Not to scare you, I just want you to be prepared. If the hugs stop, it doesn't mean it is over. It is just part of the journey he is own. He may have to be more independent, and less affectionate, to truly find his way home to you.

Re asking to go for a beer: We've both always checked with the other out of common courtesy, since the one left at home is responsible for the kids.

Ok. Makes sense.

Here's the new part, though: Last night around 11 he asked if I minded if he went out for a couple of hours. I said of course not, and he hugged me and told me he thinks I'm going so easy on him. But then when I realized what time it was, I went back and said, you know, I actually do mind. It's late, and I'm uncomfortable with that. And I'm telling you that to be honest, and if you go, enjoy (not sarcastically). He said he hadn't realized it was so late and he wouldn't go.

Why were you uncomfortable? It's good he thinks you are going easy on him. If he does something like see someone else, you can tell him you don't agree with it, you think it is wrong and you aren't going to do it, but you realize you cannot control him and he is going to make his own decisions. This might be controlling a little bit, but if asked I think it is okay to calmly and quickly state your position, while respecting/acknowledging his freedom to do as he chooses. There may be consequences to those choices, but he does get the choices.

He then asked me what I thought about being honest in regards to another person, that he's always thought the person "cheating" was honest (when they were) for their own sake, and it didn't do anything for the other. I told him I'd also thought about that and don't have a clear standpoint. Then I told him I'd like a bit of time before he starts something with someone else, that he's been in this place in his head for a long time but it's all very new to me. He said of course, he understands, he's not planning on jumping into another relationship. So I didn't ask for a year or any specific amount of time, I just told him I need to adjust. What do you think of that one? Too honest? Should I just have kept my mouth shut and let him go? My issue was I'd said so casually, sure, go ahead, and it felt too false.

No, I don't think it is too honest. I think you need to be honest, but you cannot beg, plead, or try to guilt him into doing anything. I think you can say to him that you think it is wrong for him to be involved with anyone else. You are still married and that you think you owe it to each other and yourselves and your kids to try to see if the M/R can be fixed and the family saved. But that you realize he may not agree, and that you know you cannot control him. You can tell him that knowing you cannot control him doesn't mean you have to agree that what he wants to do is ok. In other words, don't stand in his way with threats, reasoning, pleas, begging or guilt, but you don't have to enable his behavior/choices either. He is a big boy, and he needs to figure this stuff out for himself.

Now, having said all of that, you have to decide for yourself what you can endure. Are you willing to wait and fight for your M if he sees someone else? I am and have been, but it is hard. Personally, for the kids, I am still willing to wait. I won't wait forever, but I am still waiting for my W to come home. If it weren't for my kids, I don't know if I would still be putting up with this. It takes a long time and is very hard.

I just feel like there's no playbook for this one. He's always gone out a few nights a week and will continue to. We seem to have agreed that we'll continue to live together and sleep in the same bed, essentially do everything we were doing before (except be sexual), while having a different understanding of what that means. Now, I definitely see the upside of this---he's still here, we're on good terms, he seems to feel closer to me than he has in a long time---and maybe I should just leave it at that.

It is ok for you to draw boundaries. You should decide what you want, for you, and decide how important the issue is relative to your goals of saving the M. So, if you decide you want him to move out or sleep elsewhere, that is ok. But take your time and be sure.

What do you think about the talking part?

Talking about what - seeing other people?

I certainly don't want details of his infatuations, but I want to keep the lines of communication as open as they can be. How is a DBer supposed to respond to those things? Probably just listen. God knows I can't be enthusiastic about it. Maybe if he tries again I should just say he can tell me anything.

Yes, I would listen, and validate, and empathize. Do you know how to validate and empathize? It doesn't mean you have to agree or even say it is ok (and certainly not be enthusiastic about it). You can learn about the dialogue technique from IMAGO therapy. Check out http://www.gettingtheloveyouwant.com for some free resources.

And the caring friendship is also very good. Wouldn't you want that (for your kids if nothing else) even if this ends in a D?

Yes, certainly. That's part of the reason the financial questions bother me so much. I can imagine them having a big impact on our R, potentially more than his emotional stuff.

Maybe I didn't understand what the financial questions were. Can you explain that again/further? Why did they upset you? All I recall is him saying he would always provide for you and the kids.

If you haven't, you need to focus on how this led to the two of you growing apart. Intimacy is important in most (if not all) Rs. So if you pulled away sexually, you need to think about and address those issues. My W did too. Physical touch (including sex) is my PLL, how I feel loved. (Have you read 5LL?) That may be true for your H too. If you reconcile, the two of you will need to address this, but you can work on the issue now for you and your next R (whether that is with H or not).

I get this, and ironically it's something I'd been working on before the bomb. But now I get it in a different way, because it's much more about me now---it's taken the focus on making DH happy. This is my biggest long-term work in progress. And I just ordered the 5LL.

Think of it this way - it doesn't matter if you give love to people in your life in the way you feel loved. In only matters if you give love to them in the way that makes them feel loved. This is true for your H and your kids.

as far as working on himself, he seems to believe he's reached the place where he's finally in touch with himself and realizes he wants out. He's a very introspective guy, utterly without defensiveness, and feels like he's reached a good place. Ouch. I know that this sense of freedom is new for him, and I think he's going to be content there for a while.

Yeah, it might take a while. Is the any JC or IC going on for either or both of you? If not, how is he getting in touch with himself? Does he read books, articles, the web? I think the fact that he is introspective is a good thing. It beats the heck out of those who don't think about it at all or who go it completely alone. I think he can come around to where true happiness really is, but I think it will take longer than you want. Mentally start to prepare for the patience you will likely need. Think in terms of months - quite a few I'm afraid. But, I really do thing you have a lot of reason to be hopeful. He is not at all gone from you. Just lost, like so many WASs.

I am initiating zero R talks. In fact, the other day he asked if I was "finally ready to talk." Funny. I don't think he's ready to hear the third-option talk yet. He seems very concerned that I might be harboring false hopes, and needs to know that I'm not. So if I were to say this to him, he wouldn't react well.

Well, that is his problem. Look, if he wants to talk, let him talk. You can always listen, and validate. If he pushes to hear your point of view, tell him calmly, confidently and as concisely as possible. Try to control any emotion of anger, sadness, etc. If he doesn't like it, that is his problem. He cannot control you and what you think any more than you can control him. He needs to accept that. He sounds like he wants you to agree a D is best, and if you don't believe it, don't do it. Make sense?

He commented the other day (after the talk, when he was already feeling good) that he's happy to see me doing what I'm doing, wearing the clothes I'm wearing (huh?), etc. He's noticed, at the very least.

I hope you realize how positive this is. He will be watching, and you will have to demonstrate any changes you make for an extended period of time, or he may not believe them. So keep it up. Look, he is still deciding what to do whether or not he wants to admit it to you or himself. So you just need to make yourself the most attractive option you can while he decides. I'm am not only talking about physical attraction, but emotional, mental attraction. Be happy, confident, funny, fun to be around. Build your picnic. Do you know the picnic/castle analogy?

And yes, still very early, which is frightening beyond belief. I guess people really can adjust to anything.

You are a very bright, sensitive woman. Believe it or not, no matter what happens, I believe you will be fine. In fact, you will be great.

Is there some reason you need to bring this up now? Don't force things. Be patient. Your friend sounds like s/he is trying to scare or shock H into coming around.

No reason to bring money up now. My friend mentioning it just gave me a reality check. I know he means right now with all his heart that he'd take care of us, but in light of the trust issues going on for me right now, it feels foolish to rely on it. When is the right time to talk about those things? When I've given up on the M? And my friend wasn't suggesting shocking him, I don't think, but she's very concerned that we not get left in the lurch.[/quote]

Well I think the answer to that question depends on the laws in your jurisdiction. I think you need to do some research on the web, in the library or talk to a L at least initially to find out your rights and what, if anything, you need to do now to protect yourself and your kids in the event of a D. But H does not need to know about this.

It would not be crazy at all to consult a lawyer (or internet websites) to learn your rights in the event of a D. You should be prepared. But you should do this on your own, for your own info, and not bring it up with H until you have to or he does, and even then you pretty much listen to him rather than sharing info with him and trying to influence/scare/control him.

Sometimes I just can't believe I'm having to think about things like this. But yes, I agree, information is important, just for my own sake. I don't want my head in the sand. He also said he'd love me forever, blah blah blah.

Yes, and sadly, a D is a real possibility for all of us. So be prepared.

I feel like we're very much in limbo, though for him I think this is our new life. I don't want to ask him how he imagines this going forward, but I'm sure curious what he's thinking. We're talking about adding onto our house, for goodness sake. I'm very, very confused on this point.

If it makes you feel any better, he is most likely very confused too. But don't count on him sharing all of those thoughts with you. This is so tough for me - not knowing. Just try not to worry about it and be patient. Keep this is mind, if you push him for answers or information before he is ready to offer it himself, you are more likely to get an answer you don't want.

Hang in there Puddle. You will be ok, and you just might save your M too!

Nomo

[bar]

Hi Puddle!

Wow - you seem to be handling things instinctively well.

From time to time my H wants to fill me in on the details I don't want to hear because I don't need to now. I once mentioned that our R was very different to the kind of fun he had with OW. He called me naive. I said I was pretty much in the dark and had to use my imagination so he offered to tell me more. Honestly I don't want to hear it. He's always denied it's about sex but in his diary he writes about seeking sex with other women apart from current OW. Anyway I replied that he had transferred his affections elsewhere and that was all I needed to know.

Bear in mind that he told me the most fulsome details last January. Should I listen to it all again?

Apparantly they have this spiritual and psychic connection which is one of their common interests.

Regarding advice, I saw my lawyer in January and got the bottom line on D because I was concerned we would have to sell the house and my half would buy a mobile home. Well, we would, but that's years down the line as long as I can afford to run the place. H has actually offered to pay half the bills though legally he's not obliged. I also found good stuff on the net too - emotional and practical advice.
2 months ago he went to see his lawyer and came back really grim, muttering about the expense and the upheaval of D, then he went for a nap which lasted all afternoon!

Since I've been on the infidelity diet I've dropped 3 or 4 dress sizes and obviously had to buy loads of new clothes. This not only made me feel great boy did he notice. I'm slim, smart, I can wear anything, I wouldn't be on my own for long, look at women of your age -you look 10 years younger. These compliments have stopped now but I see him looking.

Going back to confidences. The last time he confided in me he told me he was scared it wouldn't work out and he didn't want to burn his bridges. What an admission! I was sure he was thinking this and I've been thinking this but to hear him tell me was extremely uncomfortable. I didn't say anything. What could I say? Reassure him it would work out and that he won't burn all his bridges? He can't look to me for reassurance about this. I can't fix this for him.

Anyway, Puddle, keep going, keep writing and keep faith.

bar

[Puddle]

Thanks to everyone for posting. I'm feeling okay right now. Yesterday I was down in the dumps, so I spent a lot of time reading this site and posting, which left my kids to their own messy, destructive devices, which irritated me, which made me feel worse, etc etc. Note to self: Spend time with the kids in the morning, preferably out of the house, and use their natural downtime to post/read. This is something I've struggled with for a long time---time to do something about it.

They might also see it as not genuine, and as an attempt to manipulate them. I don't get the sense your H is as far gone as some, as I don't believe he has said he isn't attracted to you, etc., but you will have to decide what you think is best.

I *know* my DH would see this as an attempt (and a pathetic one at that) to manipulate him, and I'm not contemplating anything like this for now. I'm going to file your suggestions, Sandi2, for a better time down the road! Thinking about being flirty, sexy, and spontaneous cheers me up for sure. Nomopo, my DH hasn't said he's not attracted to me, but I'm pretty sure he feels it. Isn't that the whole lack of connection thing? If I were to ask him, he'd probably say he thinks I'm attractive, but he's not attracted. Make sense?

If you do try to initiate sex or flirt or whatever, and if he says something like this isn't genuine or you are trying to manipulate me, I would simply say that "No, I realize I made a mistake in not being more affectionate before, and I am sorry. And I would like to try to correct that mistake if and when you are ready, but my feelings/desire are genuine."

When and if I do this (and get rejected), I'll indeed say something like this. Thanks for putting it so clearly. Right now it would be a double no-no: He'd be put off by the attempt, and telling him my feelings/desires are genuine would *really* put him off, since he wants to believe we're on the same page, i.e., I'm not harboring false hopes.

Have you read DR? How many times? Where do you live?

Not yet; it's on the way. I hesitate to post online where I live, since I want to keep this private (in the public sense), no offense intended. Is there something about where I live that might affect posts or suggestions?

He still cares for you at some level. Don't reject that. Don't force it either. Follow his lead. Loving and nurturing behavior breeds loving and nurturing feelings. If you act in loving ways, you will feel loving towards someone, so don't try to shut him down on this. I cannot stress this enough. Things may get worse before they get better, so this opportunity may not always be there, but enjoy it and use it to advance your goal of saving the M while you can.

He's open about still caring for me a lot, and I don't want to do anything to change that. Following his lead is good advice. I'm not making any move to hug him, but I will follow. Yes, hugs = generating good feelings, and I'll take advantage of what he's willing/able to offer right now.

He may have to be more independent, and less affectionate, to truly find his way home to you.

I know this, and it's helpful to hear it again. Right now every change feels ominous, so I'll be careful to guard against despair in the event that they change again. And of course they're going to.

Why were you uncomfortable?

To be honest, because I know that the place he goes closes at 11, so the only place I can imagine him going was over to the woman's he has a crush on. And because nighttime outings are scary, and that's what originally caused me to confront him about what's going on. It was a bit of a fallback to before I knew what he felt: "That's inappropriate." Of course things have changed.

If he does something like see someone else, you can tell him you don't agree with it, you think it is wrong and you aren't going to do it, but you realize you cannot control him and he is going to make his own decisions.

That is exactly what I think, but here's the question. If I say that to him, he will likely feel resentful. I obviously can't control that, but what about keeping the lines of communication open? I obviously can't stop him from doing whatever he's going to do, and I can't tell him to go with my blessings. Part of me is afraid that saying things like this will drive him out of the house, and part of me feels like he can't come back (if he's going to) until he leaves. That sounds like a zen principle (or a fortune cookie). Maybe I should start meditating.

I think you need to be honest, but you cannot beg, plead, or try to guilt him into doing anything. I think you can say to him that you think it is wrong for him to be involved with anyone else. You are still married and that you think you owe it to each other and yourselves and your kids to try to see if the M/R can be fixed and the family saved. But that you realize he may not agree, and that you know you cannot control him. You can tell him that knowing you cannot control him doesn't mean you have to agree that what he wants to do is ok.

This answers my above question, I guess. I think I'm still walking on eggshells in the honesty department. I've kept all my anger and hurt to myself since the first two talks, and that feels dishonest, so it's hard to figure out exactly where to be honest. He's clear that the marriage part of the marriage is over, so this all feels very clandestine to me. Coming out and telling him I think we should exhaust every possibility would frustrate him, as he sees none. He understands that I can't tell him it's okay with me, and says he can't expect that from me.

Are you willing to wait and fight for your M if he sees someone else? I am and have been, but it is hard. Personally, for the kids, I am still willing to wait. I won't wait forever, but I am still waiting for my W to come home. If it weren't for my kids, I don't know if I would still be putting up with this. It takes a long time and is very hard.

Good question. I feel like I am, that it almost has to happen, but it's a hell of a lot easier to say that now than it will be then. I stand in awe of your strength and endurance. Yet if you'd asked me six months ago how I would've responded to the bomb, I wouldn't have imagined I'd be as sane as I am now. I'm cultivating and counting on unplumbed depths of strength, and seeing people like you who've tapped in to them is inspiring, so thank you. And like you, if it weren't for the kids, I might very well have at least asked him to move out, eventually, anyway. I think your last sentence may be the understatement of the year.

So, if you decide you want him to move out or sleep elsewhere, that is ok. But take your time and be sure.

I agree, and I don't trust myself right this second to make solid choices like this, so in the meantime I'm not making any.

Talking about what - seeing other people?

Yes. I don't think I can be his confidante, and he probably wouldn't ask me to be. He has no close friendships and no family that he'll talk to (it's one of the things he was so sad about in our initial conversation), so I think finding someone other than me that he can talk to is going to be a big part of an OW for him. Being there for him in this situation, if he wants me to be, is going to be a tightrope walk par excellence.

Yes, I would listen, and validate, and empathize. Do you know how to validate and empathize?

Yes, I know how to do those things. I realized during our second to last R talk that there was a tone of defensiveness or sarcasm in my validation, though---kind of like, "So what I can hardly believe you're saying is..."---so I'm working on that. Sarcasm is not empathetic. Thank you for the link.

Maybe I didn't understand what the financial questions were. Can you explain that again/further? Why did they upset you? All I recall is him saying he would always provide for you and the kids.

You're right, he's said nothing other than he wants to meet his financial obligations to us ("no matter what the law says..."?), and is in fact no longer willing to consider a job that might be more fun but would mean less money. My anxiety comes from the devil on my shoulder whispering, "Sure, he says that now..." and being so shaken by the initial revelation of his feelings that it's difficult to trust that declaration. I don't want to end up in some sort of ugly legal battle and regret not having done something to protect myself and our kids earlier. So I think the idea of talking to a lawyer is a good one for my own peace of mind. No point fretting over something I don't really know about.

In only matters if you give love to them in the way that makes them feel loved. This is true for your H and your kids.

It's funny: I've always got this for the kids. I have a quote on my fridge that says "The way you feel about your kids matters less than the way they experience that love." But I'd never thought about it in terms of DH. And sadly, I realize I have no idea what makes him feel loved, nor does he about me. I know that conversation is important to me; he calls it "blabbing at him about unimportant things." Ouch. Anyway, I need to figure this one out.

Is the any JC or IC going on for either or both of you?

I recently left some absolutely rocking short-term counseling, very solution-based, and feel like it left me in really good stead to deal with this. I may go back to help sort this out. He'd been in long-term C, stopped a while ago, and recently went back to figure this stuff out. I have no idea where his C stands on this, but they have a good relationship, so there's nothing I can do there. He's not interested in JC.

Think in terms of months - quite a few I'm afraid. But, I really do think you have a lot of reason to be hopeful. He is not at all gone from you. Just lost, like so many WASs.

Yes, I realize you're right. And even if he comes around, I know that will just be the beginning of a very, very long road. And yes, he is not gone from me, but it's hard to see him feeling anything but lost---found, in fact. Patience, patience, patience.

If he pushes to hear your point of view, tell him calmly, confidently and as concisely as possible. Try to control any emotion of anger, sadness, etc. If he doesn't like it, that is his problem. He cannot control you and what you think any more than you can control him. He needs to accept that. He sounds like he wants you to agree a D is best, and if you don't believe it, don't do it. Make sense?

Yes, it makes sense to me. He does ask to hear what I think, and sometimes I've just reflected back what he said because I'm having a hard time spitting out what I feel (right now, not usually). I've asked for time instead. I think he does want me to agree that this is really a good thing. He said something in our initial conversation about feeling like he was holding me back, and I told him I get to determine what I need, but he seems to need to believe he's acting also in my best interest, if against my will, and I'm just being stubborn and won't see it. I won't agree with him that what he's doing is okay, can't even tell him it might end up being "what I needed." And yes, he'll have to deal with it. If I can disagree with what he's doing and accept it, certainly he can do the same about what I'm feeling. And his feelings, I accept, just not what he's (not) doing about them.

He will be watching, and you will have to demonstrate any changes you make for an extended period of time, or he may not believe them.

Yes, I know this is true. I've been working on the most obvious, easy changes so far, but I realize the big hard ones---the ones that might save our M even *after* he comes back (if he does)---are still waiting to be addressed. I'm trying to work on those. It feels a bit like I'm preparing for my life as I imagined I would when the kids were out of the house, and I'm kind of getting a jump on that now, which can only be good. Part of me is afraid that as I grow, I'll become a person he honestly doesn't want to be with, and/or that I won't want him, but I'm trying not to go there right now. It has to be for me, mostly anyway, right now.

Look, he is still deciding what to do whether or not he wants to admit it to you or himself.

That helps so much to remember. Thanks. He seems so confident that it's hard to remember that he really is confused (which he admitted).

So you just need to make yourself the most attractive option you can while he decides. I'm am not only talking about physical attraction, but emotional, mental attraction. Be happy, confident, funny, fun to be around.

I'm working on that. He's clearly impressed with my emotional fortitude (as am I!), thinks I look good (asked if I got my hair cut; I haven't), and now I'm working on the confidence part. In fact, this is something I've noticed in him recently, and it's part of what brought him to this point. He's much more confident than he's ever been, asks for what he wants (and is clear about what he wants, unfortunately for me), and is generally in a very take-charge place. This is beautiful to see in every other aspect of his life except our R. And I know that I need to work on that part of me, and work on showing it to him. This house remodel we're planning is going to be one place where I can do that. But I think getting my act together in that way would make a big impression on him.

As a tangent to this, when I met him he had a real messiah complex---liked petite, weak-looking women, got a real boost from helping people, etc. I pointed it out to him (pre-dating) and he was interested in examining that. Before all this recent stuff happened, he told me he'd noticed that now he finds tall, strong women attractive, that "my type" had become "his type." But now the woman he has a crush on, while beautiful and outgoing, has serious health (and emotional, IMHO) issues, and I feel like he's back a bit to rescuing. So mixed signals there, but since I have no desire to become someone who needs to be rescued, I'll choose the other path, the one that's more desirable to me, and hopefully he'll appreciate it.

Build your picnic. Do you know the picnic/castle analogy?

No, please tell me about it.

You are a very bright, sensitive woman. Believe it or not, no matter what happens, I believe you will be fine. In fact, you will be great.

Thanks, that gives me a big boost. Do you believe it about yourself?

Keep this is mind, if you push him for answers or information before he is ready to offer it himself, you are more likely to get an answer you don't want.

Boy do I get this. In our second R talk, I said something about imagining living in my aunt's house. It was pure panic talking, but he really picked up on it, and I realized he hadn't even thought about who'd live where. I didn't need to plant that seed, and I won't do it again by trying to console myself with proof that he hasn't thought through what all this will mean. As much as I'd like to reason with him that he has no idea what he's doing, I know he'll have to figure it out without my "help."

From time to time my H wants to fill me in on the details I don't want to hear because I don't need to now.

Oh lord, bar, it's hard not to be sick thinking about this. I agree that I don't want details, but I want to stay close enough that he's willing to share. Maybe I'll resort to focusing on a point in the distance.

I saw my lawyer in January and got the bottom line on D because I was concerned we would have to sell the house and my half would buy a mobile home. Well, we would, but that's years down the line as long as I can afford to run the place.

Getting the lowdown sounds good. I can't afford this place---or anything else---on my own, though, so I feel like I'm serving at his pleasure. And unfortunately, his pleasure could change.

I'm slim, smart, I can wear anything, I wouldn't be on my own for long, look at women of your age -you look 10 years younger.

Yes, the stress diet has done wonders for me, too. I've always got compliments on my looks, guys hit on me occasionally, and I have felt confident in my general attractiveness. I'm trying to leverage that now for my own self esteem---not feeling so attractive right now (though I know I look better than I have for a while, isn't that funny?). I do need to eat something, though. I haven't taken in 1,000 calories in a week, and that's no good.

What an admission! I was sure he was thinking this and I've been thinking this but to hear him tell me was extremely uncomfortable. I didn't say anything. What could I say?

Yes, when DH said I was going easy on him, I didn't know what to say either, so said nothing. I know you meant that question rhetorically, but as an exercise I'll answer it. If my DH says that to me, I hope I'll just reflect back, something like, "You're worried that it won't work out and you'll end up alone." Of course you can't reassure him that you'll always be there for him, and since he didn't say he wants to work on your M, you don't even have to decide about that. That must have been incredibly painful to hear. Walking thoughtfulness he is not. Silence was not a bad response, I think.

Two new questions, for everyone. First, I've always gone out frequently, by myself and with friends. I think my time away contributed to DH's feelings of lack of connection. But now I find myself in a position where he's going out as usual, but I don't want to. So I feel like I'm here now, where he's not interested in having me necessarily, but trying to address a past issue. But perhaps I should go out again, for my own sake and to show further that I'm okay? DH said he'll know I'm okay---as in I will have accepted that it's over---when I start dating (and it was everything I could do not to throw up---now that's attractive), and I clearly have no interest in going there (though I think it might be a huge wake-up call to him if I did!).

And second, I haven't shared what's going on with anyone but three close friends. Part of me is embarrassed, and part of me doesn't want to make it more "real" by telling the world. DH asked whom I've told, wanting to be sure I had someone to talk to. I have no idea whom he's told other than his C, his crush (I assume, since I haven't heard from her in a while), and a long-distance colleague (with whom he "feels a connection"---ugh) What have others done?

Nomopo, I am so grateful for the time you've given me. Your reminders and insights are more help than you can know, and I thank you. I'll look forward to hearing from you again.

Thank you, everyone, for being out there. I can't imagine going through this and figuring things out in a vacuum.

[Heimlich]

It feels a bit like I'm preparing for my life as I imagined I would when the kids were out of the house, and I'm kind of getting a jump on that now, which can only be good. Part of me is afraid that as I grow, I'll become a person he honestly doesn't want to be with, and/or that I won't want him, but I'm trying not to go there right now. It has to be for me, mostly anyway, right now.

Lots of good advice above. The above quote from you jumped out at me, Puddle. You're absolutely right. It seems to me that by growing, especially, when only one of us is still invested in the R, we risk growing apart. Also, as you move along this path, you'll begin to look at your H with more of a critical eye and realize that HE is going to have to make some changes to make you happy too. You mentioned exactly that somewhere, you like to talk and your H considers it 'babbling about unimportant things.'

That doesn't remove the present onus of working on the M from us, but be aware that a growing realization of what your really need from your R, and a more clear-eyed look at your spouse's flaws, are in your future. I know that's true for me. I'm still mostly in 'Damn, just give this R another shot' mentality right now, but am really beginning to understand that my W needs to give me more than she has.

You do sound great though. I'm with you, this place has been a real sanity-saver for me.

It will get better,

BD