DLT, I've just read your whole thread and would like to offer my (female) POV & pointers from my not inconsiderable x months reading/posting on these boards (this is new id) & thru trial and lotsa error in my own sitch. The following is meant w/all kinds of luv but, honestly, consider what your talk (uh, monologue anyone?) is really saying or will be heard as saying by your W:
"I understand the huge risk you would be taking to work on our marriage with me. (And you want your opening line to include the words "huge risk" why???) After the pain I have caused you, (Again, you want to REMIND her of the pain you cause? A better choice, and wht I *think* you really meant was a simple "I'm sorry", right?) this is no small favor I am asking for you to allow yourself to be open and vulnerable again. (No. Don't ASK her for anything. This is about HER and what SHE wants/needs FROM you, remember?) I am committed to you (She will be thinking, "Yeah, where we you BEFORE?!") and understand why you may be hesitant. (Are you always controlling? Wouldn't it be better to ASK HER what her feelings/thoughts are?) I want (Again, do not say anything that starts "I WANT"!) to be here for you while you explore your own personal issues. (What?! Her personal issues are YOU! You are not helping here.) If you need more time for yourself before really thinking about us, I understand and support you. I will wait and give you space, (This is clearly not only trying to lead her/control her/get her over to your "side" of seeing things, but it is not truthful. You have posted contiually how you you WANT to move back, get her to [whatever], are snooping, etc.) or be hear to hold your hand and just listen to you. I am not looking for any guarantees. I just want to be sure we have no regrets of not trying hard enough years down the road. (Again, you are pushing YOUR agenda. She has told you she needs space, and time; and you are not listening. I know you're at a scary place, but you CANNOT CONTROL HER. That is the only sure-fire way to get her to shut down. Listen to her, please.) Please don’t hold back anything for fear of hurting me. I have accepted that this will hurt, whether we make it or not. It will be painful at times. I am embracing that pain (What?! Guilt - Won't work. Pressure . . .No. She will consider this as manipulation, whether your intentions are so or not. Don't be a martry, and this is NOT about you!) because I know I have to share my feelings with you and with myself. (Did you not say [or maybe I'm confusing you w/another thread I've read tonight?] that you are the talk-y one, while she is not? So you are "offering" to talk some more?)
Okay, you get the idea? (Honestly, I am being sincere here and truly do not wnat you to walk onto a minefield w/bunny slippers on.) Just a few more highlights that pop out. . .
...but what I did was because I thought it was right and because I love you. Then, when I was realizing that my displays of affection were not what you wanted, I had no idea what else to, so I kept at it. (All of this is you justifying yourself. She doesn't want to hear that. She wants to feel HEARD. She needs to feel YOU are trying to understand HER. You're telling her you knew she didn't want so mething but you did it anyway? She KNOWS this. Apologize -- Don't try to explain it away.) Out of frustration I kept doing the wrong thing! Ditto. I look back and can’t believe that was me…but it was.
And I am so sorry for not making you feel loved. (YES!!!!! That is ALL you have to say -- ALL she wants/needs to hear!!!!:)
I told myself, “I’m not like other guys, I don’t need a lot of sex. I kept convincing myself that my needs were not important as long as I wasn’t upsetting you or fighting with you. You said something that really made a bell go off for me. You said, “We never had make up sex.” You’re right! I avoided confrontation at all costs because I thought that was my job. I know now that I was just bottling it up, then I would withdraw and not talk until it passed. Thus, the cycle of you taking this as me not giving a damn continued. I think it would be good for us to set a specific ‘talk time’ every week when we can each air our grievances and happiness. A time we know is just for that. A time that isn’t coupled with another activity, like between commercials. A time where we express our own needs out in the open. No hesitations, don’t worry about what each other may think or react. We need to be open and honest. W, I also would like for you to tell me what needs you feel I was not meeting. (Too much, too soon. Controlling. Pressure. Leading the witness. . . Again, this is not about you.)
If you’ll let me, I will make you more loved than you ever imagined. This I know, but I can’t just tell you this, it will take time to rebuild that trust and really believe that I am not going to slip back to my old bad habits. (I get where you are going w/this, but a better way would be to ASK her how you could make her feel loved, don'tcha think?)
I am afraid that seeing each other once a week is not enough. I feel like that is just enabling us to accommodate to being without each other. I would like to move back in, perhaps in separate bedrooms. If you’re not prepared for this, I do understand. No matter what the situation, I would like to write out a contract just like the separation books says. Covering everything from duration, to holding hands. (Oh, yuk. Did you not just say you would give the woman space? She will hear you saying "I don't care what you want, W. This is what I want. This is not about you; it's about me." And she will bolt. Mega-Pressure, pursuit, control, your agenda, not listening, invalidating her. Oh, no. There are some who will cry out long & loud against S; tho in my own case (as in several others - Nomo's included as I advised him, against his 'better' judgment to not fight the S b/c (a) it is not necessarily the evil it feels/appears at first light, (b) there is in fact much to be learned thru it and, maybe most importantly, (c) it is what W is saying she needs/wants right now and to do anything to 'fight' against it w/her is telling her loud & clear that what she wants/needs/feels will never been as important as what you do. End of R. End of M. But the point is, YOU do not have the right, right now, to expound on, again, what YOU want. She's alredy agreed to the 30-day S (and how many times during that time have you called, gone over, 'dated', txt'd, done favors for her, pursued, pressured, reminded her of your presence etc.?) Rather, ASK HER (as proposed by catching-on-quickly Newbies you've alredy heard from) how's she's felt about the S so far. Follow HER lead & do not put any conditions or restrictions on it/her.
Finally, I have rediscovered how I like doing things around the house. I’d like to do more." (Huh? Isn't this about HER? Delete. Delete. Delete.)
We have ALL been there. We know what you are feeling, thinking, wanting. Some of us posted pages & pages of letters, possible emails, well-thought out convos about what WE wanted to tell our WAS -- and then got shot down by the vets who said "Shut up & LISTEN, dummy!" or something like that. Or at least, "Say NOTHING that is not (a) validating her thoughts/feelings (YOu understand this does NOT mean you necessarily agree w/it but that she is, o/c, entitled to feel that way. Practice "I can understand how you could/would think/feel that." or "I see that now.")or (b) shows how you have been considering HER wants/needs/thoughts/feelings and NOT your own. Practice "I'm sorry you thought/felt/feel that way" [period - NO explanations, justifications, reasons...] or "I understand." or "If that's what you need/want/say, I can accept that [b/c I love you -optional]."
Really, I think this was covered already, but sometimes it helpls to break down the specific Why's behind the [DB] principals to really "get" them & to avoid mis-stepping in the poo the very next time the occasion arises.
So, your To Do's are: 1. Listen 2. Listen 3. Listen 4. Validate 5. Apologize 6. Empathize
And your To Don'ts are: 1. No "I want" "I need" "I feel" "You should" etc. 2. No pressure, pursuit, control, manipulations, guilt, or anything but mild (as much as you can!) shows of emotions.
Remember: This is all about HER. Let her drive, and see where she leads. Also, it's a talk. It's not a Final [anything]. There WILL BE time for [whatever] to come. Read others' threads, and you will see the very common theme that, even when there is a S or "I want a D" talk, there is OFTEN lots of space that comes next - space & time in which you can DB & allow W to question her decision to [whatever]. Time is your friend, not your enemy. I know (I know. I know!!) that you wnat this over right now, but that's most likely not gonna happen. Expect that, Accept that & keep going on.
So, (if you're still readin) I hope this clarifies some, and I hope you had a great time GALing this eve. Taking time for yourself, you'll find, is a Good Thing. Giving your W time for herself is also a Good Thing. Really.
Wow 'chele....Would you mind flying here to slap me around a little to get me back on track?! LOL! Great post! Thank you! I see MANY similarities between my sitch and dlt1's sitch and, more importantly, lots of the same behaviors between us. That's why I watch his thread so closely. Good advice for him is probably good advice for me.
Me: 46 Wife: 39 D: 13 S: 11, 9, 7 Bomb 3.2.07, Sep Same Day, D papers 11.1.07 Current Status - Wants to take me through Discovery, I will go to prison first.
Quick highjack: No, not numbnuts (and thank you, I never did ever see that spelled out before), just learnin' still.
And, H, yours is another thread that I've now read all the way thru, and see that you generally have a good grasp - and especially for a newbie! - of what you should be doing. (Now, the actually doin' it is the harder part, no?) I'm meaning to pop on over to your thread sometime soon, too, but am thinking I should get some sleep tonight if I can. . .I'll check in on ya tomorrow, 'kay?
woo hoo!