i see some great signs there, spending the time, not bringing up the r. just being cool and taking it one step at a time. good job and keep it up. don't expect and don't reject or over think any of it, just go with the flow. like you have shades on 24/7.
Well, I did it again. Should have vented here, but didn't.
We have a D mediation coming up on Thursday. Rightly or wrongly, in my mind, once we're there, there's no chance. I know other situations have turned around after that, but knowing my W, and I think I've said this before, it would take a miracle to change her mind at that point
Had a decent day today. W and girls went out and got steamed crabs. I worked outside while they picked at them -- like crabs, but not enough to get my hands that dirty. Plus, still hungry after 2 hours of work. Who needs that? Anyway, idle chit-chat with the girls and W. Couple laughs. Low key.
Once we got the girls to bed (plus one extra -- friend of my youngest), I asked her if I could tell her something. Went down to the basement.
Started off by telling her that I've been enjoying spending time with her the past 10 days or so. She mumbled assent. I then said that with the mediation coming up on Thursday, that once we go, it's really over. She said, "That's what it's for." I said, I know that, but it'll cement in your mind that there is no chance for us and I want to say this: I know that I've hurt you over the past few years and that trusting me again is scary, but I'd like a chance to show you the man that I feel like I'm becoming again. I know how you feel, but I am 100% convinced that we can have a great M and a great life together. I am in love with you more now than at any time in the past 3 or 4 years. I know that I'll be OK, but I want to be OK with you. If I didn't believe this, deep down in my heart, I wouldn't be having this conversation with you. It'd be easier not to feel what I feel for you. It's be easier if I could just shut down my emotions for you or shut down my emotions like I used to. More than anything else in my life, I want to be your husband. I know that I wasn't a great husband for a while, but I can tell you know that I realize my role and want to be a true partner with you. I WANT to be your husband."
W: I don't want to be with you. In my mind it is over. I don't have anything against you, I'm just happier without you. I don't enjoy being around you. I don't like you.
M: I know, but why? You've never explained to me why. What don't you like about me?
W: The pushing for sex was huge. I have no sexual feelings for you. I also had to 'be the man' in the R. I've felt like I pulled all the weight in the R for years, when I told you I was tired, you would help, but then would return to not doing it [not totally true, but didn't argue with her]. I don't feel like myself when I'm with you.
M: You're right. However, both of those things are actions that I can change. That I want to change. Those are habits that I don't want to have anylonger. Who are you when you're not with me?
W: Stress free. Fun. Able to take on the world. When you're around, I feel like the weight of the world is on me. I get stressed. I don't believe you can change. You are who you are. It's over. I don't want to try. (What I don't understand is that there is no real indication of this. She is a little withdrawn sometimes, but not like she doesn't like being around me.)
M: I know you're like that. I want you to be like that with me. You are a good person. You are a good woman. I'm lucky to have had you in my life. I regret not being there for you like I should have been, but I believe and am convinced that if we are honest with each other, if you tell me what you like and what you don't like, which is something you never did --
W: You wouldn't have listened.
M: How do you know? You never told me.
W: (sort of got squishy) maybe
M: how long have you felt that way?
W: 2 or 3 years.
M: I just wish you would have told me. I am convinced that we can be a great couple.
W: I don't trust you to change. I don't think you can. You keep saying the same thing over and over. I'm done. I tried. I tried to put my mind there, but it didn't work. I have nothing left for you. You're pleading with me. Stop. It's not my fault you had an epiphany and expect me to welcome you back. I feel like you're manipulating me.
M: (I got a little heated here) I'm not pleading. I am asking you for a chance to show you that I am changing before we make the D process official because I'm scared that will be a point of no return for you. If you can't see the difference, then effe you. I don't feel like we've ever had a legitimate chance to fix our R. My head is out of my a$$. I am asking you to take a chance. To give us a little time to see if those feelings can come back on your part. We can't know where we would be if we had both been honest with each other. If we were telling each other how we felt and asking what we wanted. What do you want in a R? (This is something she's never been able to articulate to me.) For the first time in years, I'm speaking to you from my heart. I am not trying to manipulate you. THis is how I feel. I feel like I'm in a catch-22. I've only realized a lot of this about 8 weeks ago. We've only been together about 3 weeks since then. I just want a chance to show you before you ask me to leave. I don't want a promise. I don't expect things to be great initially, but take a chance. What do we have to lose? We are compatible in every way that's important. Plus, you're wrong. I can and will change. I'm not perfect, but I don't want to live like I was. I don't want to be like that anymore. I'm not going to. I feel like you've suffered through a lot of bad with me. I'd like you around to reap the benefits of me growing up. I know that I can't force you to love me (something she said at some point here) or that I can talk my way into a good relationship with you. I know I need to show you, but I can't show you if we're not together.
W: I don't want to try. It is over. I don't want to be with you.
M: How can you know for sure?
More of same. Few more desultory exchanges in the same vein. Basically, trying to get her to tell me what she is looking for in a R. Either she doesn't know, or she's not telling me. I did ask her if she was still in love with OM. She said no.
I was emotional, but never came close to tears. W had tears in her eyes for most of the conversation. None fell, though.
I asked her a few minutes later, and I said, I will plead on this, to think about this, but to think about what I said at face value. I just want a chance to show you that I can love you like you deserve to be loved. Told her once again that she is absolutely wrong. I will change.
I take a few things for this: 1. Nomo, Sunny, et al, I know shut up. I felt I had to take a chance though. To show her that I really want her and am willing to fight for her. 2. She just doesn't like me, but won't say it straight up. Ego prevents me from believing this one, but could be the truth. 3. She still has feeling for me, but doesn't believe I can change and is just too scared/hurt to open up to care any more. 4. She's just done. 5. My PMA is good. I feel that she is making a huge mistake and that if she won't try with us, then she is losing out. 6. I'm resigning myself to moving forward with the D process. 7. I don't think we'll start working on our R, if ever, until we are separated. 8. The longer we aren't intimate, the less attractive she becomes to me. This is weird, but it hit me today. I have always been very attracted to her, but it's the total package of personality and looks that did (do) it for me -- and I love the way she smells. Her scent. MMMMMMMMMM. However, if I were to just see her on the street, I'd think she was cute, but she's not my 'type'. Today was the first time in years I kind of critically looked at her physically and wasn't really impressed with what I saw. That normal? 9. Need to really sit down and spell out some personal goals. 10. W remains very conflict averse. Instead of telling me (from our conversation last week) that I've thought about what you said, but my feelings haven't changed. She's content to just not say anything. 11. In some ways, starting to think that my W is holding ME back. In some ways, I dumbed myself down for her so as to not intellectually intimidate her. Plus, she's not emotionally honest. She's not taken any responsibility for where we are. That extends back to after the A, when we were trying to fix things. She apologized for the A and was sincerely regretful, but never let me talk about how the A made me feel (that was throwing it in her face) or let me discuss how I felt with her -- depressed, unhappy -- and how some of her actions contributed to those feelings. 12. She has convinced herself that she cannot be happy with me.
That's it. I know, more pursuing behavior that if I read elsewhere would think "What a maroon." Part of me feels like that, part of me feels that this didn't make anything worse. I did get an emotional reaction from her (teary eyes). Of course, that could be mostly because the end of her M makes her sad too, not that she's worried about losing me.
Oh, well. Pretty bummed about the direction here. Like turning the Queen Mary without a rudder or power. Still, not giving up all hope. Keeping the ring on. I told her this somewhere in our conversation, and it's how I feel, "You still have my heart. I know that one day I'm going to wake up and not be in love with you. I don't want that, but I know it will happen if your feelings don't change."
This stinks, but I know my life is going to be better -- with our without her.
BD
My latest
Me: 36 W: 35 2 D: 9 and 5 T: 16 years M: 12 10/4/06: Bomb 10/5/06: Ended A 4/22/07: ILYBNILWY
Forgot to mention. At the end of the conversation, I asked her for a hug. She was sitting in a chair and I was sitting on a mattress on the floor. She bent over and gave me a hug. I asked for a "real" hug. She kindof sat cross-wise between my legs and gave me a hug for a good 2 minutes. She put her head on my shoulder and left it there. Felt very, very nice. Told her this is what I missed the most in the last 3 months. Before her, I never was real touchy feely with anyone. Still not, only with her. (Kid hugs are nice, but not quite the same.) May be imaging it, but I kindof let go a few times and she stayed a bit longer than I expected. Maybe it felt good to her too.
After I told her the last bit upstairs, I was about to leave. She said she'd give me a hug. I said, you just finished telling me that my touch makes you cringe (oh yeah, something else she said earlier), I don't want to hug you if you don't want to. She gave me a look like I was manipulating her feelings or something. So I said, but of course I'd love another hug. So she gave me a full body hug for about 20 seconds.
Doesn't really change anything, but it did feel nice.
BD
My latest
Me: 36 W: 35 2 D: 9 and 5 T: 16 years M: 12 10/4/06: Bomb 10/5/06: Ended A 4/22/07: ILYBNILWY
It's not so terrible! Everything you're feeling, everything you're doing--right down to the losing of attraction--is all perfectly natural, and has been done, and will be done...unto the world's end.
I don't think that your wife dislikes you. I think that she's saying she dislikes you to shut you up.
What I see in your conversation with your wife...in the basement (?)...is a truly-felt, moving sincerity, and a whole bushel barrel of eloquence.
But what I also sense is a will to dominate through your words. I have the impression that, even on a conscious level, your eloquence is a kind of attack on her supposedly feebler intellect. You can't cross-question her as though in a courtroom and expect her to share the tender secrets of her soul.
I think that some of what you say about your wife's mode of expressing herself--or not expressing herself, as the case may be--is just due to frustration with her; but I also think that you do consider yourself to be her superior, and she knows it. But she is far from acknowledging your claim.
She is now the holder of power in the marriage, and she has no need to exert herself beyond speaking a few words--"Don't like you"--or whatever else does the trick. She seems sad, and she also seems reachable still, though not by words. It would not be surprising if she likes being powerful.
I would guess that she will not really be vulnerable until the two of you are separated.
I would not underestimate her, either in the quality of her intelligence, or in her emotional depth. And I would not kid yourself that she is not worth fighting for because she is "unintellectual."
Only--the fighting you need to be doing right now is in conquering your own impatience and (perhaps?) sense of desperation and futility. You believe that your wife has tremendous follow-through, and will do what she sets out to do. That may be true. But she seems to have surprised you before, and may do so again.
If you have been a supportive father, as you seem to be, then single motherhood may surprise her very much. I just wouldn't converse on the subject!
Thanks. I shudder at the combined ire of the Orlando crew, though you did a pretty good job on me, which I am grateful for.
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Oh...Heimlich...you are a chatty one...
Going to tatto 'shut up' on my knuckles.
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I think that she's saying she dislikes you to shut you up.
Never thought of that. You might could be right.
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a will to dominate through your words.
There's an element of truth here. Less today than a few months ago, but still there. I know that I can't talk my way into a good relationship, but was trying to talk my way into being able to act my way into a good R; if that makes any sense. Not too smart on my part.
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a kind of attack on her supposedly feebler intellect.
In no way do I consider her inferior to me. I may have given that impression, but it's simply not true. However, she has felt intellectually inferior to me from the beginning of our R. She finally managed to point out a pattern of interaction to me that made her feel that way. I was truly dumbfounded that I had made her feel that way. She's a sharp chick. That was part of the initial attraction. In many, many ways, she's a hell of a lot smarter than I am. My dumbing down comment is that I used to be pretty intellectually curious and I liked to make reference to things I know in jokes and whatnot. Never was a conscious effort to "look smart", just how I spoke. Over the years, a lot of those comments would go over her head, so I stopped making them and also stopped reading widely. I also generally think fairly quickly. I'll make a connection and spout something off. She's more methodical. Neither is better or worse, but she's never felt that she could keep up verbally with me. Which is simply not true.
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I would not underestimate her, either in the quality of her intelligence, or in her emotional depth. And I would not kid yourself that she is not worth fighting for because she is "unintellectual."
She's always underestimated herself. It's so damn frustrating, she's finally come into her own (partly with support from me over the years, I haven't always been a bad H and even when I was a 'bad' H, there was a lot of good in there too) and now doesn't want anything to do with me. All I ever wanted was for her to be as independent, resourceful and confident as she is now (she was very insecure when we first met) and now that she is, she's done it all on her own and I'm not worth being with.
She has tremendous depths of emotion, but stopped sharing that with me. And I her. I found some early letters from the beginning of our R and many of these current problems are echoed there. She just clams up when something is bothering her. For years, I would patiently pry it out of her. After we had kids, I just got tired of doing it. She clammed. I did too. Here I am. Had I been chattier earlier, all might be good.
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Only--the fighting you need to be doing right now is in conquering your own impatience and (perhaps?) sense of desperation and futility.
Yes to all three. I understand it in my head and even feel it emotionally. Still . . . I keep shooting myself in the foot.
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But she seems to have surprised you before, and may do so again.
I hope so, but I need to shut the hell up and start REALLY DBing.
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If you have been a supportive father, as you seem to be, then single motherhood may surprise her very much. I just wouldn't converse on the subject!
I can honestly say that I did the bulk of the childcare when our girls were young -- feeding, baths, diapers, playing. I did the "Mother" stuff. In councelling, she dismissed this by saying, 'Yeah, you played with the kids." She's a good mom, but I was more comfortable with them when they were younger. Now that they're older and more mobile, she's much more involved with them. She's been saying for months now that "They get along better when they're with one or the other of us." Not really true, but an indication of where her head is regarding the impact of a D on our children, which I think is total horse pucky. I have only mentioned trying for our kids once, saying that we owed it to them to try everything we could (Which I do believe) and immediately said that I do not believe that we should stay together for them.
Can you do me a favor and post "SHUT UP" every day here? Only half kidding.
Thanks for calling my on my BS.
BD
My latest
Me: 36 W: 35 2 D: 9 and 5 T: 16 years M: 12 10/4/06: Bomb 10/5/06: Ended A 4/22/07: ILYBNILWY
Just saw your long post and thought I'd try and read it tomorrow when I have some energy, but just wanted to drop in and say, "Hey!" and that I was thinking about you. Take care of yourself and those wee little girls of yours!
Hey, I'm sorry, Heimlich. I do think I was a little harsh, and not making enough allowance for the state of your feelings right now. If it makes you feel any better, I will tell you this: in the early days of my discovery of H's affair, he would have been downright grateful to be called "unintellectual"--instead of all the things I threw at him, intermingled with quotations from his girlfriend's poetry. If I could only have shut up just one month earlier....
I think that you've attained a far greater sense of humility, much earlier in the game, than I ever did.
Delia, No need to apologize. I think you were dead on with your points.
I can't imagine how I would have responded had I found poetry. Egad, that must've been awful. I hope it was bad poetry so you could get a laugh out of it.
Humility is a funny thing. I feel humble, but often come off as not. I've gotta figure that out.
BD
My latest
Me: 36 W: 35 2 D: 9 and 5 T: 16 years M: 12 10/4/06: Bomb 10/5/06: Ended A 4/22/07: ILYBNILWY
Going to tatto 'shut up' on my knuckles.
Only half kidding.