Separated from WAW

[dlt1]

Hi Willing and thank you,
It's so easy for me to read over other's sitch's and givethat support and be able to step back and point out what the right DB solution is. But applying it to my life is soooo much harder, as I'm sure it is for us all. So, settle in for this one:
Friday-
text W at 9:30 (she should be just starting work) "I need to stop by the house and pick some things up on my way home. thought I'd feed the pups while I'm there. Ok?"
W calls about 5 min later:
W -"sorry I didn't call you back, got home late Wed and then knew you were out Thurs."
Me - No biggie, I hope the card wasn't more of me pushing. F is having a steak cookout for me and other F tonite. Wanted to grab a bottle of wine and my grill thingy. I'll feed the dogs and still beout b4 you get home.
W - That's fine, I'm glad you are doing that (not sure she said glad, but that's how I'll remeber it!) I have to visit the cats, so I can take my time now. When do you want to get together Sunday?
Me - I don'y know, do you have anything in particular you want to do or place you want to go? Or do you want to just hang out?
W - Let's play it by ear, not really sure.
Me - What time works?
W - probably a little later so I can get some work done that day.
Me- Ok 3 or 4?
W - Let's do 4.
Me - Ok, well, have a good weekend and I'll see you Sunday.
W - Ok you too.
Me - Oh, Saturday I think I know how to fix the pipe, what's your schedule with parents and BF? (Parents coming down to help BF put his boat in water, he's never had one).
W - probably 10 or 11 and be there 3 hours or so.
Me - Ok, I'll come over after you leave so we shouldn't cross paths. I'm sure that woudl be a little awkward!
(little laughs from both)
W - That sounds good, thank you.

Pretty good huh?

Fast forward to after work. Get home and let dogs out, start sprinkler to water bone dry lawn that hasn't been watered since I did it Wed. Notice case of beer w/ 5 gone. Only 1 of probabbly 5 leftin fridge. begin - snooping (I have to reel this in, makes me feel like sh*t afterwards, and that doesn't count when i find something) Trash on patio has several beer cans (she rarely if ever drinks alone). They are from Wed or Thurs.
Upstairs - rings still there. Bed sheets thrown back from 'my side' thinking must have been 2...but...dogs get up there, could have been W's only exit. Begin drawer search. nothing except lots of new undies, no biggie, she is losing weight and LOVES new panties. Begin checking under mattress (thinking how psycho I'm acting now) notice something under her night stand. Kneel down...an unopened condom!!! May be the old brand I had, but know my night stand in full of diff kind I bought and still have from right before our R. Hmmmm...frantically search for opened wrappers EVERYWHERE-nothing. Compare expiration dates, one I found is '08, old bunch I have are '09. OK, this is an old a** condom. Don't think I noticed dust. Absolutely no other signs of OM presence, and boy did I look!
I can't explain away everything, but I can't ASSume the worst. Soooooooo confused and hurt. I left condom where it was, just slightly more visible.
Head to F's for dinner.
His W is there, waiting fro F who is also good F with my W that I almost pressed about rings (we'll call her WF to keep it straight later).
Can't hold it in, get to tell my F some details. The girls arrive and leave and F's H stays with the guys (he'll be WFH for tarcking purposes today). I give details, an dthen say "you know, the worst part is I may very well be able to forgive her if I knew the whole sitch. Make me feel like a schmuck, but I love her so much." Guys hedge between backing me and trying to quick fix me to happy. Have talk about being friends to my M, let me hurt if it gets my M right in the end.
We eat, we drink, we smoke cigars, we drink some more. I say we need to stake out W's we laugh it off.
WFH says WF told himabout last weekend with my W and how they went back to guy's place. He was not really mad at her about that, but about why. WF said she kind of thought she should stick with W and see what was going on. WFH said she shoudl have expressed her discomfort and insisted both did not go. He grilled WF and said he is certain nothing happened with W. I already belived that (until condom...the who knows). Said I reallydon;t want WF in the middle, and I really feel for her balancing both of us. WFH says, "Man, you are great and we knew you first. If it comes to sides it's yours. It's your biz, and I let WF know that, but if she knows you're being screwed, she has to step in the middle and stick up for you (or vice versa)."
Expressed appreciation and let it settle. I don't want secret agents with W.
Later, I leave...and...drive by then walk by house. Kitch light is on, which is never on unless no one is home. It's 2:30. Ugh, more snooping that accompolished nothing except making me more crazy.
I go by local bar, no car in lot, I go home...finally.
head to bed near 3. Have a gut check, realize I'm spiraling down imagining the worst. Find a shred of decency and sanity and stop. realize I kow nothing and have to man up if I want to fight. Lonely. text W "Can't sleep. You awake?"
Fall asleep within miniutes. That text somehow calmed me even though did not hear back.
Wake up around 9 with an interesting hangover. Review teh night in my head, think how f*@king psycho I am and how my actions did no good, and potentially killed my PMA which means killing my M.
Feel the need to call W. Hold phone for 10 minutes debating. Remeber (Nomo's?) gut action. I call.
W - Hello
Me - Hi, how are you
W - Ok
Me - I'm sorry about texting you in teh middel of the night
W - Oh, it's Ok. (sounds just short of chipper)
Me - I had a few to drink, and everything is coming to a head this weekend. I'm really emotional and I just feel silly that I did that.
W - (Almost laughing) It's Ok, I wqs sleeping and didn;t even get it until this morning.
Me - I just feel silly and wanted to call to apologize. So are your parents down yet? (Realized my piece was out time to change direction and move towards close if she has no R talk).
W - I just got back from gym. F is on his way, parents shoudl be down in about an hour. We'll be gone by 11, but I'll call, er text you when we actually leave.
Me - Ok, sounds good. Sorry again, have fun.
W - OK.

Goals:
1. fix pipe, really need to follow through.
2. work on shortening my Sunday Speech into a small convo with less emphasis on me and more on getting to her feelings.
3. Work, brought some home to keep me busy.
4. tonite, go out, but don't get tanked. Level head for tomorrow
5. Identify baby steps I should look for tomorrow.
6. Forgive W (did she do anything, who knows, if so, doubt it was until this week. If anything, she just pulled a Ross).
7. Forgive myself. I've acted like an idiot, makes me feel 2 inches tall. Hardest goal.
8. make shorter list of goals! LOL
Guys, I am scared (broken record?) D day is nearly here. Last night with the boys helped me focus on the fact that I will be OK on my own. I will have a great R in the future (w/ or w/out W). I am learning on to feel my emotions and not fight them.
Just about done here...have to fess up
I am going to do 2 things I know are not good, but will settle me either way. Ring check, very curious if she wears them when parents are hear. Could mean she feels guilty, could be benevolent due to she's as confused as me, could be...I won't find an answer, just know I will look.
Also, will see if condom is there or not. I will not gain a thing from this either way. Just saying I know I will do these things despite what I know. After that, I am going to stop all snooping. Kind of tying up loose ends before tomorrow I guess. Should we continue to work on M, I must and will stop snooping.
Advice if you have any: how do i bring up faithfulness in my talk without making her think I am accusing? It needs to be discussed ever so lightly so I can gauge her reaction, or give her opportunity to speak up about anything that may have transpired. Am I way off here?
I know, I'm a mess, thanks for listening!!

[Willing NJ H]

You feel the same as me DLT, it's very painful and confusing. As far as OM's, read what everyone posted to me. As far as bringing up fear of infidelity. I nicely mentioned in a conversation, that i've been jealous lately, and that I haven't felt that much jealousy in a long time. I told her that I knew (total B.S.) I probably had nothing to worry about, but apologized if she saw that the S and her going out was awkward at times. She said it's ok and understands, and it made me feel better. It eased the pain, and now I just deal with it. I talk to you guys and read DR whenever I get out of control. (I even keep DR with me in my bag at work!) I think if you do have to bring it up, do it nicely and don't ever do it again. I waited several days, and decided that I had to mention it to her. She knew that by "jealous", I meant that I was afraid she was/would be with someone else, and she reassured me "there's nothing to worry about." I don't know if she told the truth or not, but I have to deal with it. Good luck bro.

[dlt1]

Willing, yes I need to reread your thread.
Well, I was unable to fix the split in the pipe. (irony?)
W did not wear rings today with parents. Strangley happy that she is not putting up an act or anything with them. Unhappy that it could reinforce that she's done with M, but whatever. Condom had not moved and no other signs of a another person (as usual). I think I went way too far in thinking. I'm done with that.
Tomorrow I'll get answers anyway. Maybe not all of them, but then that would probably mean we have a future to get the rest!
Going to work on what I intend to say tomorrow. Will post in a bit for feedback.

[dlt1]

Ok here is 1st draft of what I want to say to W tomorrow.
It seems way too long?

"I understand the huge risk you would be taking to work on our marriage with me. After the pain I have caused you, this is no small favor I am asking for you to allow yourself to be open and vulnerable again. I am committed to you and understand why you may be hesitant. I want to be here for you while you explore your own personal issues. If you need more time for yourself before really thinking about us, I understand and support you. I will wait and give you space, or be hear to hold your hand and just listen to you. I am not looking for any guarantees. I just want to be sure we have no regrets of not trying hard enough years down the road.
Please don’t hold back anything for fear of hurting me. I have accepted that this will hurt, whether we make it or not. It will be painful at times. I am embracing that pain because I know I have to share my feelings with you and with myself.
I held back my emotions because I did not want to hurt you. I see how that came across to you that I did not care. W, I love you and care for you so deeply. I did not do things the right away, but what I did was because I thought it was right and because I love you. Then, when I was realizing that my displays of affection were not what you wanted, I had no idea what else to, so I kept at it. Out of frustration I kept doing the wrong thing! I look back and can’t believe that was me…but it was. And I am so sorry for not making you feel loved. I told myself, “I’m not like other guys, I don’t need a lot of sex. I kept convincing myself that my needs were not important as long as I wasn’t upsetting you or fighting with you. You said something that really made a bell go off for me. You said, “We never had make up sex.” You’re right! I avoided confrontation at all costs because I thought that was my job. I know now that I was just bottling it up, then I would withdraw and not talk until it passed. Thus, the cycle of you taking this as me not giving a damn continued. I think it would be good for us to set a specific ‘talk time’ every week when we can each air our grievances and happiness. A time we know is just for that. A time that isn’t coupled with another activity, like between commercials. A time where we express our own needs out in the open. No hesitations, don’t worry about what each other may think or react. We need to be open and honest. W, I also would like for you to tell me what needs you feel I was not meeting.

If you’ll let me, I will make you more loved than you ever imagined. This I know, but I can’t just tell you this, it will take time to rebuild that trust and really believe that I am not going to slip back to my old bad habits.

I am afraid that seeing each other once a week is not enough. I feel like that is just enabling us to accommodate to being without each other. I would like to move back in, perhaps in separate bedrooms. If you’re not prepared for this, I do understand. No matter what the situation, I would like to write out a contract just like the separation books says. Covering everything from duration, to holding hands.
Finally, I have rediscovered how I like doing things around the house. I’d like to do more."

Please, any feedback would be great. Be brutal

[dlt1]

I'm wondering if I should make this my list, and juts try to highlight the validating, no gurantees, will take time, etc.
Was thinking of starting: "So, what have you gained the past month?" Then let her roll and just pick my moments when she looks to me. Another possible opener:
"As much as I would like to be back home with you, I am wondering if you'd be comfortable with that yet?"
or (thanks EAA):
"What are two goals you have for us to achieve over the next month?"
Any suggestions? other ideas? I think I should minimalize my opening and let her flow. Woudl like to say something that leads her to an answer that gets her talking about being together.
You lawyers should be experts at that!

I was worried of sitting alone all night. Took the bull by the horns and made soem calls til I got someone to meet up with. GAL can be hard when all my friends are married, mostly all with kids. I really miss my W b/c we always has Fri or Sat out just the two of us.

[EAA]

slt1,

LET HER LEAD! It's not that I think your ideas are bad, nor your intentions...Not at all. But if you go in with a plan, you're likely to dominate the conversation and, even if you choose your words carefully, she's likely to stop listening if she feels that this is all about what YOU need.

If she seems unwilling to initiate the conversation, then use your "Please don't hold anything back..." line. Listen and respond, but don't lead the conversation. If she doesn't give you the opportunity to say some of the things on your list, don't take the opportunity. Let it slide. Don't let your immediate desires get in the way of your ultimate goal. I know that you REALLY want to move back in, but try not to ask for it and push for it. I guarantee she knows that you want that. She doesn't need a reminder. This is the perfect chance for you to show her some real changes. Give her credit for being smart enough to know what you want. Validate her feelings. Nothing more.

You might even get a chance to use some reverse psychology. This is just my opinion and there are no guarantees, but if all goes as planned, I think, at best, this would be some very powerful reverse psychology and at worst, be really good DB skills. If she says something like, "Well, maybe you could move back in...", instead of getting excited, let it go. Say something like "If you're not sure yet, maybe I should wait a few more weeks. It's a big risk for you." If you have the chance, it will probably be the hardest, most unnatural thing you ever say. But remember to keep your eye on the ultimate goal. The best thing that would happen would be that she sees that you truly care about HER feelings and tells you that she's sure she wants you to move back in. The worst thing I see happening, is that she says, "Maybe you're right. Maybe we should wait a bit longer." And I know that would crush you, BUT, that'll be a big change you're showing her. And, if she's that easily dissuaded, then she wasn't really ready anyway. She will respect the balls that it took for you to say that. And, in the long run, wouldn't you rather wait a few more weeks and come back to comitted, open arms, than for her to be unsure and reluctant?

This will be a hard conversation. And if you do everything right, it will be even harder. The upside is that, if you do everything right, I'd be surprised if she didn't begin to show more interest in spending time with you. She's going to have it in the back of her mind, that you are truly respecting her and you have truly changed into a more loving partner. She will probably want more evidence, though...Especially if you remain separated. So I would think she would begin to try to spend more time with you to see if your attitude sticks. If that's the case, make sure that it does.

Don't look at this conversation as a chance to fix everything. Look at it as a chance to open a door or plant a seed. I know it looks easy on paper, but it won't be, but I think DB skills at this meeting have the potential for a huge impact, even if it doesn't grab her immediately.

I don't know for sure that it will come to this, but wouldn't it be great if you stayed separated another month and she said, "I really want you to move back in. We can do this if we work together."? Wouldn't that be worth the wait and the effort?

Keep your eye on the BIG goal, my friend. The big goal won't come now, but what you do now can get you there faster.

EAA

[Nomopo]

DLT,

Boarding a plane, but why are you forcing an R talk today?

Nomo

[dlt1]

W wants it. It's the end of the 30 sep she agreed to instead of D. I am backing my off my intentions slightly and will let her lead as much as possible. Only if she presses hardcore that she is done will I lay it all out. Have to walk away knowing I did not hold anything back. Hopefully we go for a extension of waiting and I can work these things through with her over time. Trust me, I'd love to wait for teh talk, but she wants it. Wish me luck, I'm headed there now.

[Nomopo]

Ok. Listen, mirror (when appropriate), validate and empathize with what she says. Don't argue, plead or beg. Don't seek reassurances. Don't prolong the talk at all. If asked, tell her you don't want a D and would like to work on the M. That's it. Tell her she can have as much time and space as she needs. Don't set more deadlines. They just add pressure.

Good luck,
Nomo

[Heimlich]

DL,

Lots of good advice here, so I won't repeat. Just wanted to wish you good luck. Fingers crossed for you.

BD