Shocked H in NJ looking for DB help

[Heimlich]

I feel you, Will. My W seems to have taken a lot of comfort in talking to the receptionist in her office, who is divorced and has a daughter the same age as our oldest. I've met her a few times and she really is a nice person, but she's divorced and my W has really believed her, I think, in reinforcing my W's idea that if we get a D that our girls will be fine. It's infuriating, because my W has no friggin' clue what it will mean for the girls (my parents are divorced, I know what I've lost), but she never talked to me about it. Grrrrrr, mini-vent there on my part.

At any rate, if your W goes out once or twice, let her get it out of her system. I just read your post on Puddle's thread. In all honesty, given your W's past and the sexual issues you've had in your M, it seems that a PA is, while a possibility, perhaps a remote possibility.

BD

[Willing NJ H]

Thanks Heim, that's what i'm hoping. She's said that she wants to be sexual, and feels that our problems may have been part of the issue. I know it's B.S., because she's always had sexual issues with all of her partners (good part of being friends w/ her for years before we got together, knew her past), but she does this thing of trying to convince herself. If we have a problem, rather than just fix it the obviuos way, she gets thinking "there's got to be some very in-depth reason i'm feeling this way." and she thinks about it forever (almost literally.) She usually won't accept that there is no "magic" answer, people just do what makes or fixes the issue for them. She seems to think that there is a set of rules that all human beings follow. That's her problems now. Like in DB and DR, she believes that a M should be a fantasy world. She thinks a good M, means that you are romantically head-over-heals in love 90% of the time, and all problems can be easily fixed with almost no effort. When I used to try to tell her, "there is no magic answer, we are our own people, we are adults, the right way is whatever is ok with us." she felt I was pushing my opinion on her and making it up. AHHHHHHH... so frustrating. The thing that got me the most, is Michelle reinforcing my ideas. She says that the best of marriages is often like a "good buisness relationship." Good communication, good friends, comfort, good times, and the romance and love varies over the years. We have to work on love for it to thrive. I've always felt that way, adn have always been willing to solve issues with whatever worked for us. I just never had her input, and got very pushy and started pointing the finger at her never communicating. I know exactly what I did wrong, but I have no idea how to convince her that we have an excellant R, we just need to work on communicating and meeting each others needs. She thinks it has to be over because of her way of thinking (she's word for word what Micheele writes about with the wlka away wife and believing there were no goos times and she was never in love.)That's why I want her to read DR / DB. She's a very technical person, and if she reads it with a partially open mind, it could help us with a major break through. She's stopped reading lately though, and I don't want to push her. I know it will help some (even if she's not very receptive), but we're at a stale mate right now.

The thing with her girfriend, is it's a bit too often. I told her that I love that she goes out with her friends, and that it's always been ok (she never did because she thought i'd get mad... even though I always encouraged it.) I told her that her going out with her single friend and the single guys is uncomfortable since the pic and EA, and left it at that. She's a nurse (an almost entirely female field), and her co-workers are mostly divorced, miserable, man-haters. A few of them bash men constantly, and use men for sex (very outspoken about it.) They tell her how all men suck, they are better off as a single independant woman, etc. She says that none of this affects her judgement, but I can see it. I don't say anything, but it's not good. If she would step back and give us a shot, I know she would see that she can have everything she wants with me. She just won't accept that we can do it through communication and hard work. She's thinking that we have to just "clik" all of the time, or we were'nt meant to be.

Wow... you struck a nerve there HEIM. lol. Thanks for helping me get that out. That is a pretty good description of our current sitch (other than EA, OM worries).

I have to say, the thoughts of infidelity have taken over lately, and it is the hardest thing i've ever had to deal with. I guess i'm doing ok with it, but I feel like I have absolutely no control at all.

[imLIN]

Yep...we find out if we have control issues or not when it comes to a WAS/MLC'er...or in your case a possible QLC'er...

My H pretty much told me all the same stuff...lost the passion, didn't love me, blah blah blah blah...he also worked with a lot of single men...fortunately one in particular was a complainer and was always having issues dealing with his "women" so this sort of stalled H from hitting the "single life" after the A ended...he was in too much of an emotional state to handle a bunch or emotions...but women are different...we tend to (at times anyway) feed on the drama...our own and our friends...so I can sincerely see your concern where your wife is right now...but you have to let it go...it is highly possible that she will get caught up in things and the best you can do is be prepared NOT to over react to her if she comes to you...

How they rewrite history is pretty amazing...especially when the history is so long...my history with H was from age 15-42 for me and 19-46 for him...not like we didn't know each other well...what he "chose" to see in me were all my faults while I was "choosing" to see all his attributes....even though at the time he wasn't earning enough to support the family and I could have really picked issues with that...but instead he said I did and I think mostly this is there confusion...they are reflecting back to us what they see in themselves and it scares them...they can't handle it...

Take care...Lin

[Nomopo]

Hi Will! Great to hear from you and glad the gang class was good (beyond the traffic).

In Orlando, getting ready to start our day, so I have to keep this short, but . . .

I've been doind better overall, but the thought of her possible having an A behind my back is eating at me. I've been working on it very hard, but my mind and gut aren't listening lol. Every time she leaves the house, gets a pone call or text message, etc., I get all messed up. I've had an upset stomach for the past week, and my system is all out of whack. I'm actually doing great with the S and M issues, even ok with the thought that we may or may not make it, but another man in the middle right now has me going bananas!

This was the hardest part for me in all of this. I have come a long way, but it takes time and hard work (making sense of this issue and your sitch, that is), so stick with it and know it will get better. There are some nuggests on this in my last few posts (starting with my journaling on 8/4 when W took an unannounced trip out of town), so you might check it out. Anyway, I will be back with some more specific thoughts on how I think to best deal with this particular issue. Remind me if I haven't gottn back to you on this by Monday, ok?

One more thing I forgot, her hanging out with only her single friend from work is driving me nuts. I knnow I can't control it, but it's a horrible influence right now. The girl is very attractive, uses men to suit her needs and get what she wants, and is very active / open with many men. I hate this, because i'm pretty sure it's clouding my W's mind as to it meing "ok for a mom to do", or that this is what she needs to feel free again. She denies that she wants to be like the girl, but she ahngs out with her and her single male friends at least once a week (out drinking and partying). I know I can't control it, but I had to get that out since I can't say it to her.

Will (and Heim):

It could be that your W feels trapped and/or needs to regain some of her independence. That is certainly part of what is going on with my W. (Again, see some of my recent posts, especially the JC session on 8/9, and then my IC session 8/10.) This is scary for us, and threatening, because it feels like they are leaving us, but that is not necessarily the case. The may need the independence if you will, and/or not to feel trapped, for you to have a chance. Realizing that has helped me feel better about what she is doing/going through, and it makes it easier to let go (in a healthy way).

The thing that got me the most, is Michelle reinforcing my ideas. She says that the best of marriages is often like a "good buisness relationship." Good communication, good friends, comfort, good times, and the romance and love varies over the years. We have to work on love for it to thrive.

I like this!

I've always felt that way, adn have always been willing to solve issues with whatever worked for us. I just never had her input, and got very pushy and started pointing the finger at her never communicating. I know exactly what I did wrong, but I have no idea how to convince her that we have an excellant R, we just need to work on communicating and meeting each others needs.

I know you are dying to fix it; me too. This is where patience comes in. SOme things just have totake time and unfold a certain way. She needs to come to this herself, in time. This doesn't mean it won't work. It means she needs space (at least for a while).

That's why I want her to read DR / DB. She's a very technical person, and if she reads it with a partially open mind, it could help us with a major break through. She's stopped reading lately though, and I don't want to push her. I know it will help some (even if she's not very receptive), but we're at a stale mate right now.

Not yet. Maybe later, but uf she reads it before she is really open/ready, then she will reject it and have a hard time coming back to it later.

I have to say, the thoughts of infidelity have taken over lately, and it is the hardest thing i've ever had to deal with. I guess i'm doing ok with it, but I feel like I have absolutely no control at all.

You are doing as expected. Or better. It takes time. You will get there.

Later,
Nomo

[Disillussioned]

She usually won't accept that there is no "magic" answer, people just do what makes or fixes the issue for them. She seems to think that there is a set of rules that all human beings follow. That's her problems now. Like in DB and DR, she believes that a M should be a fantasy world. She thinks a good M, means that you are romantically head-over-heals in love 90% of the time, and all problems can be easily fixed with almost no effort. When I used to try to tell her, "there is no magic answer, we are our own people, we are adults, the right way is whatever is ok with us." she felt I was pushing my opinion on her and making it up. AHHHHHHH... so frustrating.

Willing,
I feel like I'm reading my own story when I read your posts. My wife is the same way. In the beginning it was a fairy tale romance, but understandably things have died down a bit. She is very reluctant to admit that the romance and passion is something that you need to work on daily and sometimes even schedule. The W stayed overnight with a girlfriend last night is is spending the day with her today. I'm working on being a good dad and having a good day with the kids. Tonight we will all be going to some local fireworks. Hoping for the best, but will not push anything. Will just be laying back and enjoying the family.

[dlt1]

I have to say, the thoughts of infidelity have taken over lately, and it is the hardest thing i've ever had to deal with. I guess i'm doing ok with it, but I feel like I have absolutely no control at all.

You don't.
Or do you mean you don't have control of your thoughts? I'm glad you reco's me to reread your thread. When I see my actions/sitch through someoen else it is easier to see everything.
You like golf? Think about John Daly skipping the PGA practice rounds b/c he didn;t feel like playng in 100 plus degrees. So he hung out at the casino for 2 days and then opened up with a 67!
In other words, get your mind off things and go do whatever you want for a bit.
I expect my W to 'be done' tomorrow. Going to accept it and move on. Still a lot of time left for us.
Hang in there, you got the skills

[Willing NJ H]

Thanks everyone,

Rather than replying to each of you, i'm going to explain some possibly major changes that happened yesterday.

I have an aunt who is in town with her family from California, so my dad decided to have a family picnic. I told W the other day that she was invited, but didn't have to come. She decided to go, and we spent the entire day at the picnic with my family. We talked to everyone, ate, went swimming, and played volleyball. When we left, she looked strange, so I asked her if she was ok. She replied that she "felt weird". I asked why, and she explained that she didn't feel right being around my family with "the way she feels", but wouldn't have felt right not going either. She then explained that everything is strange, and she feels that we are just prolonging "what she knows is going to happen", and doesn't gethow talking to a counselor or reading books will help us at all. She stated "they don't know us, so how can they tell us if we are meant to be together or not." I asked her if she wanted my explaination on the topic, and she said she did. (I've been thinking about telling her this for weeks, and didn't want to due to DBing. She was now asking me for the reason, so I took the chance and told her.) I said that she's explained to me that she "wants us to be good friends after we divorce." I told her that I know I can't give that to her, and will probably harbor hard feelings, if we were to go from acintg like everything is fine to a divorce without trying to fix anyhing. I told her that the purpose of therapy, and/or the books, wasbn't to fix our marriage. I said "these people have over twenty years of dealing with couples in our situation and much worse. They give you tools to see how you could change/ work on things. They validate your feelings, explain many reasons as to why you may feel as you do, and they offer real life insight into things that we may take for granted or have the wrong perceptions of. I said that if we both look at the books / therapy with a truly open mind, it will make us test the waters and see what we are really made of. It may show us that we have the possibility to make our love/R stronger than it's ever been and tell us how to communicate so we know what the other person wants and needs, or it may show us that we have exhausted all resources, and make it ok to be truly comfortable as friends. (then, against all rules) I said that I would like both of us to go into the books/therapy with the mindset that anything is possible and ok, and that we can come out either way (because it will give us both what we want.)

She actually paused for a bit, I shut up, and after a few minutes she asked me to explain more!!!! I hid any sign of excitement, because I thought this was a fluke, and explained to her that I believed every bit of Michelle's methods. I told her that if it has worked for so many people, and she can directly quote our exact issues and statements never having known us, that maybe the books really could show us how to have a stronger marriage and have every single thing that we each want. I also threw in that even if it wasn't for everyone, if we bought into it and it worked, who cares if it saves our family and gives us everything we've ever wanted. (I always kept a statement that it may also lead to just friends, and i'd be fine with that). She asked me to explain what kinds of things Michelle says about our sitch in the books, and I started thinking "holy sh*t... she's actually serious!" I explained to her about the WAW Syndrome, the parts of the book about "I don't love him anymore, I never loved him, I never should have married him, Mature Marriage and how in a good realtionship love rises and falls depedning on what you put into it, etc." I told her that there were specific areas of the books that I could show her if she wanted a better explaination. She said "can we do that tonight?" WHAT? OF COURSE... WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE??? (of course that was in my head lol). We got home, put D in bed, and talked on the back proch for a bit. She explained the things she didn't like, how me over-talking her made her afraid to approach me, etc. She also told me that she now knows that she did love me (thank you god), and that she just never got to the point that she was "in love with me as strongly as she thought she should be." I told her that I understood, and that I never acted as myself with her in the beginning because she was the only woman I was ever intimidated by. We continued for a while and it went well. We ended up going into our family room, and I sat on the couch and grabbed DB (as I remember by heart where some key sentences are, and have them highlighted for my own reference later). She layed on the couch next to me, but kept some distance (with her feet near my leg.) I read her several passages about how we got to where we are, how we neglected each others needs, how we didn't communicate, and how we both tried doing things to fix the M in our own minds, but never got through to one another. She was extremely interactive, and asked a lot of questions. As we talked, she made satements about things "we have to do" to fix this, and sounded as if she thought it were possible for us to fix our M. (ALRIGHT!!!) She interacted with every one of Michelle's methods that I read (how to find out what the good things are to build on them, how to start communicating, why she feels the way she does right now, etc.), and made more and more "we" comments. She seemed very posistive toward the idea that we may actually be able to have a stronger M/R if we do this right, and inched closer to me (putting her feet into my lap)(another awesome first). We did well for a while, and she said that she's willing to give it and honest, open minded try. We talked a bit more, and she told me about some of the things I did that bothered her. One of the major things, is that she felt she moved out of her mothers house when her mom needed her most (grandparents were ill and passed away a few months after she moved in with me), and she didn't think she would have done it had I not pushed her (They didn't live far, she wouldn't be working to finish college, and her stepdad wanted to start charging her rent). I acknowledged that I was wrong, and that I have thought of several situations in the past where I let my emotions and the way I was raised dictate my reactions / decisions. She said that she knew that I did everything with good intentions, that I am the best man she knows and have many qualities she likes, but that she resented a lot of the decisions she made because of me being pushy. She acknowledged that she didn't have to do those things, so she was part to blame, but that I was very manipulating without intending to be (stating that she knows I got that from my mother, and am mostly like that when i'm stressed.) She got very upset about the person "she allowed herself to become", and cried about not being there for her mom / grandparents when her grandparents passd away. I told her I was sorry, have regretted it for a long time, and that I knew there was nothing I could do to change it now. I told her that I would never allow such things to happen again, and if there was anything I could do I would. She accepted what I said, and told me "This started good, I don't want to ruin it. I don't like you very much right now, but i'm sure I'll feel better in the morning." She sat silent for a bit, and said that she was going to bed. I said "ok, thank you for being so understanding and open tonight.", and she left the room. I thought that was it, but when she finished getting ready for bed, she came out of the bedroom, made eye contact with me, and said goodnight in a very nice way. (which is also another first.)

I am seeing this as a bunch of positives, and I think she may really be willing to work on us now. I will take baby steps, and treat this with kid gloves. I will not be pushy, I'll let her initiate convo's and interactions; and i'll continue to give her space. I know I have a long way to go, and that she could fall back into "I don't love you and we aren't meant to be.", but his is a great start if we have any chance at all. I know I have to contribute this to DBing, and all of your help. Hopefully she comes home from work tonight with the same mindset, but I will take it one step / one day at a time.
Thanks a lot, and I look forward to comments and advice on this.

[dlt1]

Hey Willing,
Congrats on the talk! Sounds like she is opening that door a little more. You're right to temper your reaction. Let everything sink in with her.
I'm headed to see my W in a bit for our R talk. Scared to death. God, I hope it could 1/2 as well as yours!
Well done,

[Puddle]

Hey Will,

That sounds like it went wonderfully well---so many firsts! Congrats, and good for you for continuing to take it slow. Sounds like you're ready for the roller coaster ride while keeping it positive. It's so nice to see you reaping the rewards of this hard work. Good for you!

[savingus77]

Willing - that is great news!!! I am so happy for you that you have made this progress. It gives me hope!!

This may be in a prior part of your thread - but I wanted to ask some q's about your living situation: Are you guys living in the same house? Sep. bedrooms? Has there been any affection b/t you guys ie hugs, kisses etc? What has the daily conversation been like?