Nomopo's Sitch - Patience, Patience, Patience

[Not Much Left]

D and Nomo
I actually tried the arm touch tonight after reading this! Hope it was taken well.

[Nomopo]

Thanks for the support and encouragement Sunny, bella, Heim, Slowly, CVA And Delia! More specific responses later, but just wanted to say thanks!

Nomo

[dlt1]

Hey Nomo, your sitch really is inspiring. Keeps reinforcing the Dr rules of patience and space. My M's spiral downward began many months ago with the same cycle of reasoning my needs away and withdrawing until I got over it. W took this to mean I did not care. Now the balancing act of answering our needs but giving them their space begins! I think we need to decide which needs to bring forward (ex: my ring sitch, not bringing up...my need for a least a coutesy answer to a phone call, yeah we'll talk about that one). Not to say we should 'cover up' the needs not being talked about, more like remind ourselves "this is a need I have, but for now I must wait."
Take this high to Orlando with you, enjoy!

[PMA_Baby!]

Great stuff Nomo thanks. Sounds like you really had a good session. Glad to hear that you went w/ your gut on making that call. Afterall, you are the true expert on your R and W.

I'll write more on the JC session later.

Have a great weekend everybody! BM07

[delia]

Second, I brought up her hostile reaction to the idea that OM is a problem, and how she had said we had many other very big problems. I could sense hostility again on this point. I said I understood what she was trying to say, and that I agree we had problems long before the EA came to fruition. She said really? I said yes, and that I had said as much before, but I sensed today that she hadn't heard me or believed me, so I want to say it again clearly. She thanked me. I did also say I thought she had not validated how hard it was for me to deal with this issue, and referred to our exchange in JC about her and OM saying me bumping into them was "awkward." Well, did you hear me today say I understood? I said yes, but off the record I could use more validation.

You've made so much progress in your remarkable counseling session--and in the phone call you initiated! Your renewed feeling of optimism certainly must be sensed by your wife: nothing like having a real PMA, as opposed to one you're trying to fake.

I'm just wondering whether your wife will ever admit the destructive role of the OM if she is directly challenged. To admit it, is to admit guilt, and while it's fairly easy to admit that you haven't been responsive enough, or that you've been too involved in work, an EA is of a different order of guilt. She may not be at a point of even daring to look objectively at her own role in your marriage problems.

OM/EA may not be a subject that can even be approached with her through a logical route. When you've talked to W about your feelings about the EA--maybe of vulnerability and sadness--does she close down in the same way? Does every mention of OM force the same shut down?

Maybe it's a subject that can abandoned for a time. I'm not really sure of what the correct thing is, but I might tend to see where not pursuing the topic might lead.

[Nomopo]

Hi Kelly - Thanks for the support.

Question: I know DR didn't cover this at all but what are your thoughts on the WAS seeing the LBS with an OM or OW. Do you think that could shock them into feeling a tinge of jealousy? Right now when they are with an OP they think that they have no feelings at all for you. Do you think if they could feel a little bit of jealousy that they would wake up and realize that they do have some feelings for you or could that just justify them staying with the OP?

I think it can definitely help (see, eg, Notagainplease's sitch and others, and this may be going on with Sunny's H a little, IMO). My personal opinion is it works more for WASs who are men than women, but that is just my gut. I also think it is dangerous for two reasons: (1) some WASs will just view that as further evidence you don't care about them or that you have accepted the M is dead, or as a betrayal (despite their betrayal), so it can backfire for sure (TREAD CAUTIOUSLY) and (2) most of us LBS are vulnerable and have unmet needs and we can easily fall into something that is not consistent with our stands for our M/Rs. Just my 2 cents.

My dearest Sunny! (((((Sunny)))))

Pretty powerful stuff Nomo!

I know!

Seems to cement that W is in fact going to MC & not just to better the R for the kids sake, etc.

I think so too. C really felt like you sensed a slight change in W yesterday. (I just had my IC session.) We'll see. She thinks W was more "in" the JC session, if you know what I mean. It's just a hunch, but C is big into reading people (recall she read my W negatively before and it bothered me, but she was right on at least some of those reads for sure).

With each session, it looks like you gain some connection, positive feelings, & understanding.

Yes, but especially in this one I think.

on a subconscious level mostly, if not entirely (I didn't realize it until some time in the last few weeks/months and somewhat today), because my reaction to abandonment is to become more independent, to say this is not a problem and to deny that I have needs that are not being met. I act as if I don't need intimacy, affection, affirmation, or to hear "I love you" every day

This is pretty big.

Actually, it is HUGE HUGE HUGE for me, and we explored it some today and will explore it more next week so we can really make sure we "get it" C says.

The phone call sounds like it went well, sometimes you have to trust your gut & go for it.

I think this worked out well for me for sure, and it could also be huge. Time will tell.

Looks like it's heading in the right direction & you know the steps to take & not to take to get it there. Yay You!

I thin it may be headed in the right direction, but I know it will be long and slow. I think I know the steps, but we all know it's not an exact science and there will be stumbles or even falls. Onward and upward though.

Hola bella!

You know, everytime I come to this board I am overwhelmed by what I read and tonight is no exception. Nomo, you are a great communicator, maybe you weren't in the past but you've learned from your mistakes. It just blows me away that you can be this in-tune with your feelings and emotions.

Thank you for those kind words. Really.

W did say that no, she doesn't think the OM is clouding her views.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but..that's bull. That is the alien talking. It does cloud your vision. Of course, there were problems in the marriage before the OP came into the picture BUT it is harder t see things clearly when you have someone "waiting in the wings". I guess I shouldn't say that with certainty b/c it's not always the case, I can just tell you from my own experience (and I mean when I was having an EA and then a PA). I just wish people in this situation could see it in hingsight.

I hope you don't think I'm trying to bring out the negitive in your post, but that just jumped out at me.

Not at all. Actually, I agree with you 100%, and have thought/known that for a while. It is bizarre. This came up in IC this morning. We think one day, when she is re-engaged/re-invested in the M, she will be able to admit this, but not right now. IC said W is in huge denial about some things, including this. So, this goes on the backburner for a while. But I do feel good about what I was able to say on this topic in the JC session. And C did say when she re-engages, we will deal with this pretty quikcly and she has helped 100s of people through infidelity and she is not at all concerned that we can deal with this and get past it (as well as trust issues). So, patience, yet again.

BTW, IC seriously doubts W hasn't told OM about the S.) Hmmmm. I was accepting that, not that it matters that much to me. I did remind C that W volunteered to me (when we got coffee that time after I saw W and OM driving back from lunch with him driving her car) that she had not told OM about the S, as opposed to me grilling her on the issue and her having to deny it in response to a question. Not sure if that changed C's mind at all.

Hello Heim!! On the devil issue, you wrote:

We all have our good and bad sides, don't overthink a comment like this. I bring it up, because in the past the OM has been a huge weight on your mind and, if my W made this sort of comment to me in the midst of a conversation about an OM, my mind would go nuts. Take it for what it is, almost certainly a comment that we all have good and bad impulses.

I think this is spot on, excellent advice. Thank you. This is exactly how I need to (and will) view this.

Anyway, I think trusting your gut on the phonecall can be huge in the future for you. It strikes me as a 180 on your part -- "I'm Nomo, I've always been independent, yet I'm admitting to you, my lovely W, that I do need to hear ILY/feel love more."

And I agree with this to, but did not see it like this until youpointed it out for me, so thanks again!

And thanks for the positive words too H!!! (I believe you are wise beyond your DB years.)

Hi CVA, and as always thanks for the support.

Good for you on the going w/ your gut thing. I think we all need to do that every once in a while, this DBing stuff is not mechanical and scripted, sometimes you gotta wing it! I do it all the time at work, it always served me well.

Yes, I agree, but don't let this deter you from your needed patience. Remember the chef and not cooking the 350 degree dish on 500 degrees? Some things just take time, and I think your W still needs some time and space. Don't get overeager! (I saw your post about using your gut a la Nomo this morning. )

Hi delia!

To be truthful, I sense that you are cautious, and this may well be wise.

But I'm wondering whether initiating touch, very casually, might be helpful? I'm thinking in terms of quick touches on the hand or arm. This may be something you have tried already, perhaps, but I see it as rather powerful.

I like the idea. I am cautious about this, and at times have had to try consciously to be cautious (goes hand in hand with pateince). I may experiment with it a little in a few weeks if we start to build some good will in our interactions.

And, again, CVA - monitor that enthuisiasm and extinct to be doing something all the time. I know how bad you want to fix it; me too. Sometimes just letting it be can be good. Time, space and independence. Let emotions and ill will subside. If you touch her before she is ready it can just reinforce that your feelings or different. Not saying that is true in your sitch, but I get the sense you are forcing things too much. Can you go a week (when she is in town) and just let things be?

Hi dlt1, thanks for stopping by and for the kind words and support.

My M's spiral downward began many months ago with the same cycle of reasoning my needs away and withdrawing until I got over it. W took this to mean I did not care. Now the balancing act of answering our needs but giving them their space begins! I think we need to decide which needs to bring forward (ex: my ring sitch, not bringing up...my need for a least a coutesy answer to a phone call, yeah we'll talk about that one). Not to say we should 'cover up' the needs not being talked about, more like remind ourselves "this is a need I have, but for now I must wait."

I agree with this and think you are thinking clearly. On bringing up your needs, go ever so cautiously. If in doubt, don't. And don't think you need to bring one up every time you talk, or even every week or month. Until yesterday's JC session (and my needs re: OM and our commitments, etc.), I don't think I have consciously brought up a need of mine since about May 1st. I will have to review my journal to be sure, but in any event I have been pretty successful and disciplined in outting my needs on hold or on the back burner.

I talked about them a lot on these boards, however.

Thanks for the support/encouragement BM07.

Hi again delia!!

You've made so much progress in your remarkable counseling session--and in the phone call you initiated! Your renewed feeling of optimism certainly must be sensed by your wife: nothing like having a real PMA, as opposed to one you're trying to fake.

I think this is likely to be true, and I so hope so. Brief interaction with W this morning (will journal later), but I think she could sense it. It was good.

I'm just wondering whether your wife will ever admit the destructive role of the OM if she is directly challenged. To admit it, is to admit guilt, and while it's fairly easy to admit that you haven't been responsive enough, or that you've been too involved in work, an EA is of a different order of guilt. She may not be at a point of even daring to look objectively at her own role in your marriage problems.

See my comments above about what C said in IC session. So I think the answer is yes if and when she re-invests in the M/R. Importantly, W admitted yesterday that she does feel guilt, and C thinks it is a lot. Also see what I post shortly to Slowly.

OM/EA may not be a subject that can even be approached with her through a logical route. When you've talked to W about your feelings about the EA--maybe of vulnerability and sadness--does she close down in the same way? Does every mention of OM force the same shut down?

Maybe not shutdown, but same reaction (hostile, defensive, frustrated/angry), so essentially yes and yes to your questions. I think the key is that she cannot do it now. So I am happy to wait to see if she ever reinvests.]

Maybe it's a subject that can abandoned for a time. I'm not really sure of what the correct thing is, but I might tend to see where not pursuing the topic might lead.

Agreed, and that is the planned. Consider it duly tabled. On a related note, IC also told me this morning that she thinks if W re-invests, she will eventually have to accept that OM must be cut out of our lives completely and totally. Made me feel good/validated to hear that. C also said she thinks W can do that, but she wants me to see how hard and scary it will be for her. That has been a lifeline for W for a while, and to choose to put her faith and trust back into a R with me (when there is very little recent track record to go on) would be a monumental step. I think I see that (but even more so today). It was good to hear C say that, and makes me even more sure that if and when W re-invests my initial reaction will be "thank you for sharing that. I know how hard it was and I appreciate you being so courageous.

Thanks everyone! Talk to you later (off to Orlando).

Nomo

PS - Slowly, getting to you next! You get your own thread.

[Nomopo]

Hi there Slowly!! {{{{{Slowly}}}}}

Hi Nomo - I'm so happy with the progress you are making with you Shaking OM's hand, making eye contact - wow. Just this could be considered achievement of the month

Thanks!

Your PMA is high (endorphins from exercise, social validation from here and face to face meetings, meeting goals from your PLAN) so you are able to contextualize this huge step. W on the other hand, is busy at work, conflicted, and will definitely need a LOT more time to digest just what this means. Patience, patience, patience.

Wise words, and they make sense to me too! Is this (universal) need for patience by LBSs related to your screen name?

W said at one point that she is not quite sure who she is going to get when she talks to me. Sometimes she says that I sound really good (for example, she said, I sounded great on the phone call last night from SD's party - really happy, and like I am doing well), but other times I seem short/cold or sad. This surprised me and I didn't really understand it because I felt like I have been pretty positive (maybe neutral at times), but sad/cold just doesn't make sense to me.

Tough love coming up. This is probably a 'language' thing - as in Mars/Venus. I can see how she gets this impression. She is probably magnifying in her mind those time when you have been in a funk. Magnifying because they touched her more than your other interactions. Maybe they triggered memories of the not-so-rosy past. In fact, seeing you on your 'great' moments and then seeing you in a funk, may be showing her a split personality?

That all makes a lot of sense. And always bring the tough love (though it wasn't so tough really ).

Oh, this is so hard. Of course you are going to have bad days. But given her sensitivities, maybe a few scripts up your sleeve, like 'honey it's great to see you, but I have a piece of glass in my shoe and I'm not going to be good company' right up front, may help her?

I love the script idea. Thanks!

BTW, right after I used the expression, it's like there is a little devil on my shoulder (thanks CVA!), W piped in "we all have a little devil on our shoulders." I wonder what she meant by this. Maybe she was trying to make me feel better, and nothing more than that, but in hindsight I am wondering if she means she is tempted to go with OM, or to hurt me, or to just throw in the towel and quit/leave, or do something she ? Any thoughts? Who knows, really, besides W?

This is actually good. This whole process works if where possible you can diffuse the H vs W thing, and acknowledging that you both have a little devil to contend with will be yet another common ground. It is the sort of thing you can joke about, and does not always have to be about the R. My vote is to build on this theme. Fun Nomo is more credible if he has a little devil whispering in his ear, about postponing work, enjoying forbidden sweets with kids, and if necessary, even about running away to the exotic East

Good take. I like it! Singapore is on the to do list!

She pushed to talk now by phone, and got up to shut her door. So we did it. It was emotional on my part anyway, and I just said there were two things I wanted to talk to her about. First, that I had been thinking about our JC session and the cycle that led us to grow apart really upset me. And I walked through that cycle on the phone (and she was agreeing) and explained how I had denied my needs. And she agreed with that too. I explained that it was really just hitting me pretty intensely, as I thought I had understood it on a different level in the context of our R. She validated and said she sees how her pulling away was not good for us either and how it hurt me. (I could sense in her mind a little defensiveness, and suspect she was playing the blame game in her head a bit and thinking that well, you hurt me first.) She was concerned and compassionate and supportive. She also said all this focus on me was really good and important for me, and she was very glad it is happening. (I think she still doesn't quite get that she needs to do the same thing.)

I'm glad you went with your gut on this. Good call. She is definitely in the mood for you. I think her pushing to speak right away was fabulous.

Thanks!

And remember some time ago we spoke about her underlying need to see that the S that she initiated has been good for everyone? I think you just gave her a big piece of that. I know, she needs to see that some of the this is homework for her too, but for now, you've just empowered her a little bit more to declare the separation as productive, and be a little more comfortable that there have been changes all round, to maybe initiate exploring the getting-back-together. But this too will take time, so patience, patience, patience

This was the BIGGEST thing I got out of your post. I do remember, and you know what, I understood what you said (to help alleviate guilt, she can't end the S too fast because she put the family through this), but I didn't feel it. I didn't feel like the S could be viewed as productive by me. If I had tried to say that, it would have failed. So I had tucked that nugget away and was chewing on it slowly.

Well, in the JC session, the C asked W about her guilt. W admitted it. C thinks it is a lot of guilt.

Now don't get me wrong, the S has sucked and I am not at all sure I would put my kids through a S again if it were up to me in a do-over, BUT . . I DO see some positives. I do think it has been productive for me, and for her, and hopefully for us. And it feels REALLY weird saying that, but it's true. And it feels honest. I said before that I think our S might have been unavoidable if we were to have a chance to save our M, and now I think (given W's mindframe and what I needed to learn) that is was absolutely necessary. So I probably would put my kids through again (in these exact same circumstances).

So, this morning in IC I told C about your thoughts on this (and she was nodding calmly), and then I told her about my realization and she almost jumped out of her chair (she did thrust her arms into the air) and said yes! Seriously, she was beaming for like 5 minutes. And I told her I had trouble believing it, but I planned to bring it up next session when C asks both of us if we have been thinking about the last session. C thinks I should and that this will be GREAT.

((((((Slowly, my friend))))) I am grateful yet again for your support and time.

Nomo

[Not Much Left]

Now don't get me wrong, the S has sucked and I am not at all sure I would put my kids through a S again if it were up to me in a do-over, BUT . . I DO see some positives. I do think it has been productive for me, and for her, and hopefully for us. And it feels REALLY weird saying that, but it's true. And it feels honest. I said before that I think our S might have been unavoidable if we were to have a chance to save our M, and now I think (given W's mindframe and what I needed to learn) that is was absolutely necessary. So I probably would put my kids through again (in these exact same circumstances).

Nomo, hmmm, that got ME thinking now. At the beginning, S was a dirty word, now, even though it does "suck", it has changed my outlook for sure.

[dlt1]

Ditto that CVA. I am not afraid to prolong my S now. I don't like it...but...if I find W does want to continue working, then as Michelle says, "Don't change a thing. It's working isn't it?"
I never thought that changing the S could be bad! Now I am prepared for it as something that won't hurt (the M, not me) as much, and can actually get me closer to her. Wierd.

[Nomopo]

See the ripple effect Slowly? I hope (know) you're smiling too.

Nomo