Reality...Bite Me

[unbroken]

Hmm. tough to deal with people like that.
Interestingly, I read somewhere that they are the MOST likely people to have affairs. Because people who realize they arent perfect, realize that they CAN screw up, and so are more likely to avoid things that lead to it.

This is very interesting to me! If you ever recall where you read that from, please let me know, I would love to read more about this...for myself too.

You never fail to give me some things to think about...like, keeping the door open...I am always so scared to make any attempts or show any affection because the last time I did, he yelled at me, "haven't we gone through enough?"...kind of left me speechless as he was never much of a yeller. What have I got to lose, right? I guess I just don't know how to do this. It's unrealistic to ask him if he still wants to "work things out"...any subtle suggestions that lets him know the door is still open? I have been much darker than before...I was never one to contact him first, but my responses were much lengthier and in depth. Now, I respond short and quick. I think it has helped me because when our contact used to turn into conversations, I always felt bad afterwards...all I wanted was more, more, more. How do I stay dark while showing the door is open? Is this just an example of throwing out the line to see what I get...if bad, I just reel in the line and wait quietly again?

I will also think about how I can see H differently...in a more positive way. If we get the chance to work on M again, I will have a lot of work to do on myself as well in terms of trust and faith.

[Dom R]

I am always so scared to make any attempts or show any affection because the last time I did, he yelled at me, "haven't we gone through enough?".

Timing is very important. There's not much point in showing him an open door, if all he wants to do is head to another neighbourhood.

As far as dropping hints goes, i think that you have to wait until such times as your relationship with him is going very well, and then say something like, you'd enjoy being together like this every day. Doesnt sound like you're along that path, though. Maybe sometime in the future, if you two start "going out", that would be ok.

I dont have any experience in starting recovery though, so this is just a guess, as opposed to someone who has gone through it themselves, or a counsellor.

OR: Since you are heading in the other direction, going relatively dark with him, perhaps a mention, one time, BRIEFLY, that this isnt what you wanted... that it is his choice not to have an intimate relationship with you any more, not your choice, and you would prefer things were otherwise between you.
Dont go into big "i want you back" stuff.. no begging, pleading, neediness. Short and sweet, so to speak.


I wouldnt mention it more frequently than once a month, and not if you've had any other "relationship talk" recently.


The one thing you can do ALL the time, is simply to treat him with courtesy, while avoiding showing him contempt.


The whole "going dark" thing, i think is originally from the harley books and concepts. They advocate going "formally" dark, and writing up a letter, saying basically, "I want to have a good marriage with you, but I am hurting too much by the way you treat me. If you are willing at some point to commit to our marriage, and treat me like [.....], then please contact me about that. Until that time, please do not contact me AT ALL, except for critical children/legal issues".

Then they have something in their hands telling them that yes, the way back is open, and also what they have to do to follow it.

HOWEVER....
1. Following that approach is no magic bullet. It supposedly is primarily for the emotional protection of the LBS, when they cant stand "being nice" any more
2. it probably doesnt work too well for MLC. primarily just straight "affairs". But I dont know.
Harley doesnt mention MLCs. Only Michelle does. Harley's books primarily deal with a spouse leaving for "someone else", because their emotional needs arent getting met by their spouse. They dont deal with the concept of spouse leaving, because of a lacking in themselves that they are struggling vainly to fill.


There are other finer points to the formal approach. one being that you are supposed to leave them with as positive a view of you as possible before you hit them up with the letter. That way, they remember the best of you, rather than any fights leading up to them leaving.

PS: the stuff about 'perfect' people being prone to affairs, was probably in a "harley" book somewheres, but cant be sure.



So anyways, thats what my book research tells me

[Dom R]

I am always so scared to make any attempts or show any affection because the last time I did, he yelled at me, "haven't we gone through enough?"...

coming back to this again... there's a big difference between
begging/crying/pressuring "WHY WONT YOU WORK ON OUR MARRIAGE?!?!?"

and raising in a neutral way, "i think there are ways that we could have a good marriage together, that I dont think we've looked at".
(and letting HIM drive the pace of looking at it)


buuut... with MLC, all that stuff is most likely going to fall on a deaf ear, i'm afraid there are teenytiny windows of opportunity, it seems. I've had maybe 2, in 12 months. Blown them both for the most part mostly because I didnt realize just how big it was. my wife actually kindasorta hinted to me about it herself... but I didnt want to push her. in retrospect, i think I should have found a way to show her things could be good with us, without making it seem like i was pushing. instead i opted to hardly talk about "us" at all.. and lost the chance.

If you see a chance, when he is feeling disillusioned with his curent lifestyle, maybe a very gentle "[if this is what you might like]" reference to something, might pique his interest.
if and only if he shows some interest, then offer him another nibble, and see if he takes it.
Thats my advice, for what it's worth.

[Dom R]

I think it has helped me because when our contact used to turn into conversations, I always felt bad afterwards...all I wanted was more, more, more.

WHOA, i just noticed this....
lets put aside how you felt afterwards... how were the conversations themselves?
(arg, bad deja vu here.. i seem to recall writing these words, and then shortly afterwards getting final legal notice ... we'll see )

anyways.. if the conversations were overall positive experiences (from HIS viewpoint...) then, unless you are going formally dark.. you might want to consider letting him draw you in a bit more.
If he is getting disillusioned with OW, this is the best possible time for him to get reattached to YOU.
critical window time, in my opinion.
If you are unavailable, and she is available... he will eventually go back to her, in that situation, i think.
The only way you would be really safe form that, would be if he wasnt in the band anymore.
danger of a "love the one you're with" attitude from him.

yes, you want more.. of course you do. But you have to get a grip over yourself. If the only negative thing is, "you want more", then be happy it could be a slow path to get it!

If on the other hand, the conversations end in bad arguments, or other relationship-negative things, then you are doing the right thing in going dark.

[unbroken]

Wow - there's a lot here to digest.

The only way you would be really safe form that, would be if he wasnt in the band anymore.
danger of a "love the one you're with" attitude from him.

This is exactly why I don't see much hope...regardless of the short period of time he has been gone. There is no way he will quit the band. This is his first band that seems to be making some strides and they seem to have a lot of good connections to get things going. Not to mention that he did quit a previous band he was in because it wasn't working out for us (for our family) and one of his band mates then went on to form a new band that is now making millions. I know this is a biiiiig issue for him. I have often wondered if he somehow holds this against me (or the family/family life) that he missed his chance to "make it".

H just emailed me to switch days that he is watching D10...he made mention that he is going to MI for the day. Why does he have to give me snippets of information like this? Like I care? Well, the point is that I do care A LOT...and when he gives just bits and pieces of information like this, then my mind goes insane...like, why would he be driving all the way there for the day? We went on our honeymoon in a small town in MI, is he taking OW there? He doesn't really know any other place there. See my thoughts just go crazy at the littlest thing...thank goodness I have this place to let them out instead of at him.

[Dom R]

one of his band mates then went on to form a new band that is now making millions. I know this is a biiiiig issue for him. I have often wondered if he somehow holds this against me (or the family/family life) that he missed his chance to "make it".

Ohhhh.. that's rather important information to have.

I'll answer that question for you right now: Yes. Yes he does. A lot. He blames you, and your children, for "holding him back".

Except of course, that it wasnt you. It was him. His previous band sucked. That's why that person made a NEW band. and THAT one was successful.

If he was so wonderful and talented, his first band would have been successful. But the other guy is the one with the talent.

Plus: being a "family man", and being a "rock star", are completely, totally, incompatible.

All this does not mean that your situation is hopeless.
I dont think it is right for you to use words like "never".
It's just gonna take a long time for his fantasy to crash.
For him to realize taht just because "his friend" made a lot of money in "a band".. doesnt mean that HIM being in "a band" is going to give him fame and fortune.

then on top of that... he has to decide that being a "family man" is what he wants to be.
you really dont know which way he will eventually swing.
But you do know, it's going to take a lot of time for him to decide.

How long does it usually take a band to give up and split, if they're doing it "full time"?

how fully do you think he was committed to your family, when he decided to drop out of his former band? At that time, do you think he truely wanted a family? or was it more of a "oh well the band thing isnt working out, i guess i'll try the traditional path" kinda thing?

[nickyf]

Ub

Please try not to assume that your husband is taking OW there, for all you know he could be going there by himself. It is interesting that it is the place that you went for your honeymoon, maybe your husband is taking a trip down memory lane. The point here is, you never know, so don't get yourself upset over something that may not be happening.

Hope you are ok

Nicky

[unbroken]

Except of course, that it wasnt you. It was him. His previous band sucked. That's why that person made a NEW band. and THAT one was successful.

You hit the nail on the head. Their band wasn't good at all and there was no reason why he needed to spend so much time away from the family traveling when he wasn't making any money or going anywhere with it.

If he was so wonderful and talented, his first band would have been successful. But the other guy is the one with the talent.

I wouldn't say the other guy is talented, he's just good at marketing himself and his band. This burns my H's butt more than anything too. My H even taught one of the other band mates how to play this genre of music and this kid has been in music magazines and stuff...it kills H. The irony of all of this is that H loves to trash talk the marketing guy and say that he would walk all over anyone and leave anyone behind just to get to the top...I would love to say, "yeah, just like you're doing to your family?"...Here's another good bit of info I forgot about, the marketing guy told H he wasn't commited enough to be in a band that could "make it"...I forgot how he worded it, but he made mention of the family...ouch! The thing is when he started this new band, I was completely supportive. We agreed on the goals and understood what was involved. I won't say it wasn't hard when he was gone because it was and I won't say I didn't complain sometimes because I did. I told him he made me feel second best, but I also explained he could still do what he wanted and make me feel like I/family came first. It was just the way he said things. If I said I needed him one night instead of going to "practice", he would just say, "I can't"...flat out, that was it. I never asked him when I knew it was important, but if I needed him, it was always a big deal. Granted, there were times that he would stay home, but he was NOT happy about it and he let it show. I would say that I was way more supportive than not though. It became our life. And to top it all, OW is a part of this whole dream too since she is the singer. My sister told me once that she thinks it's natural for people to gravitate towards someone they believe will get them farther in life. I tend to agree, but it still all comes down to 2 things; the grass is not always greener and choosing to commit. I think H struggles with both of these right now.

I don't know if he ever wanted to be a family man. D10 was a surprise and things were always difficult...my attitude was "you gotta do what ya gotta do", H's attitude was "why is this happening to me" even though we both agreed we wanted to work it out. We didn't get married right away so when we finally tied the knot, I thought it was for real. Man, I really looooved our family.

[unbroken]

Hi Nicky,
I know, I know. It's just weird. I guess I should mention that today would be (or is since D is not final) our 5th anniversary. Although he is not going to MI on our anniversary date, it was weird to see him mention it today of all days. I don't think he is taking a nice walk down memory lane...although it is a lovely thought. Our email correspondace might explain the sitch better.

H: I know we're texting, but I thought I'd email this because it'd be easier.
Sat Aug 25th I'll be in Michigan for the day. I was wondering if I could see her Friday the 24th?

Me: Would you like to exchange emails from now on when it comes to scheduling days instead of texting?
The 24th is fine. Just curious though...do you know what time you are going to be back? I was just making plans for that evening.

H: I don't mind scheduling via text. It was just too long for me to explain and it's sometimes hard for me to text while I'm at work is all.
I can leave early and be back I'm guessing around 8:00 pm give or take a half an hour? Where you planning on going out that night? If so I can def watch her overnight.

[Dom R]

The thing is when he started this new band, I was completely supportive.

hindsight: you shouldnt have been. not because of fear of cheating, but because, just like the marketing guy said: bands, and families, dont mix.

Some thoughts:

1. this singer is just using him until they make it big, then she'll "go solo" (what does he DO anyway?)
[or until she scores a rich groupie suger daddy]

2. i was thinking that your daugher might be what finally wakes him up, ro gets him to GROW up. But .. umm.. you didnt get married until she was 5? thats... "unusual".

Sounds like he has a very long running case of peter-pan-ism.
I'd say you should not talk like your family is "over", and you should encourage any time he wants to spend with your daughter, without pushing it on him. And also try NOT to replace him in her life.

If he truely loves her.. he may eventually realize what a schmuck he is being, by not being with her when she needs him (to be her strong support going into middleschool/high school, and to provid her with morals. girls without fathers, often end up screwing a long chain of boys, to "have a man in their life" )