Anyhow, I was just going to mention re: the mirroring that one of the real benefits for us has not been (or not merely been) in terms of acknowledging each other's emotions, but in actually *understanding* each other. To the extent that we sometimes misunderstand the other's intent/meaning/interpretation, "mirroring" back each other's statements in our own words ("So I'm hearing that you mean ...... etc") has been a really useful tool. In that sometimes we discover that each other's seemingly-ridiculous point of view wasn't what they meant, at all. Sometimes we can get to talking at cross purposes and think there's a problem when there really isn't one.
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
It's not necessarily about the emotions so much as it is just generally "hearing" what your spouse said. I have noticed on a couple of occasions my H got quite confused as to what I actually said, and I thought (and so did the ST) that I was perfectly clear. H's interpretation of it was totally different and I could easily see where we would have ended up having a very heated discussion had it not been for him/I not being able to respond to what each other said right there and then
Heywyre
M - 57 H - 65 1st A-bomb - Nov 27/02 2nd A-bomb - Dec 13/06 together 21 years *************************** Insanity is doing something over and over and expecting different results (Albert Einstein)
OK, I've avoided continuing this for a couple of days because things are better and I don't want to rock the boat. But that fear is part of the reason I'm in this place to begin with, so here goes.
mrs.cac: I've written about cac's smoking and how it bothers me. He will shower at night sometimes, but it usually is with the expectation that we will have sex. (I drew a boundary and told him that I wouldn't have sex unless he was showered.) I'm not interested (at least right now) in having sex every night. However, I'd love to be able to cuddle etc. during those "off" nights, with him showered of course. I don't see this as an option, if he expects sex every time he comes to bed showered. This makes me feel pressured to perform. So he only showers when he thinks we will have sex, which really means missed opportunities for one thing leading to another.
Cobra: I’m a little confused with what you’re saying. On one had you say you don’t want sex every night, so he apparently doesn’t see the need to shower every night, only those nights when he wants sex, meaning the nights he doesn’t shower gives you a break from sex, right?
I guess I was setting my goal at a couple of times a week because cac said that was his preference. I don't know how many times a week I'm capable of having sex or would truly want it because I've never explored that. Sometimes I see him coming to bed unshowered as a "break" and sometimes I'm a little disappointed.
The panicky feelings set in because I need to state to him that I desire sex with him before we're even in bed, so that he'll take a shower. There is nothing spontaneous about it. I've made a commitment. So I ask him to take a shower and he does and then he comes to bed assuming we will have sex. I go to bed thinking I want to have sex, but a little nervous because I'm unsure if I can actually pull it off. Why?
Well, for one, I usually go to bed "cold." Basically we go from sitting in the living room watching TV to bed/foreplay. Unless it's ovulation time, I don't do 0-60 well. There is no kissing, hugging or snuggling in the living room, because he smokes.
Then there's the sensory issues. He might still have smokers' breath or my nipples might be sore or his hair might be wet (wet hair smells like wet wool to me) and all of a sudden my desire has evaporated. Now what do I do? He's there loving me and I'm so panicked by these thoughts that I'm paralyzed. And the more panicked I feel, the further away my desire is, just beyond my grasp.
Now I'm faced with a choice. I can try to push these thoughts from my mind, but they are so darned persistent. I could fake it, but I'm not a very good actress and it just seems wrong. He becomes aware of a change in me and wonders what is happening. He asks me if I'm not really interested or would rather go to sleep. I can't tell him I'm not interested. That's not fair. I told him earlier that I wanted to have sex and now I'm saying that I don't. WTF? He's now being nice about it and that almost makes it worse. What the he11 is the matter with me?
But then you really do want him to shower every night, but not always want sex, but to cuddle some times. I with you so far….. but then you say his not showering, which could be his way of taking the pressure off of you, is creating missed opportunities for sex. Do I have that right? So which is it, do you want him to always shower to leave open the possibility for sex? But I thought that would put too much pressure on you to perform.
Ideally, I would want him to shower every night as part of his bedtime routine, completely independent of sex. He said here that he desired sex 2 or 3 times a week. So that leaves 4 or 5 nights that we could have sensory experiences that don't (necessarily) lead to sex. Or maybe they would. I don't know because he's always smoked, so on nights when we know we aren't having sex, there's no cuddling at all. I felt I had to declare *no sex unless you're showered* because you can be sure that he'll end up with crap sex otherwise. And that's not what I want. Does any of this make sense? I am trying to reverse a Pavlov's dog reaction to sex, basically because I've been trained to expect him to smell like smoke, which usually stops my desire dead in its tracks.
Another confusing thing is how is he to know when you want sex and when you don’t? For him to expect sex every night pressures you too much. But you want him to shower each night anyway. If he does this, which nights is he to initiate and which nights is he to cuddle? If he doesn’t know, then should he just assume cuddling each night, to take the pressure off you, and leave it up to you to decide which nights are for sex? But wouldn’t that mean you have to initiate, and wouldn’t that take away the appearance of desire you want to see in him? Am I correct in getting the impression that you are not sure what you want? That indecision is poison for a victim. Maybe its no wonder he prefers to just go back into his cave.
I want to explore my sexuality and my sex life with cac to have the best SL we can have. That is what I want.
I wasn't completely clear about the reasons I don't like to initiate. Years ago before infertility, I felt comfortable initiating because he was receptive. It felt natural and it was playful. During or after the infertility, and I'm not sure when it happened, he started to get very sarcastic when I would suggest sex, like putting his hand to my forehead in a mock attempt to see if I was feverish, or he might say something like, "you want to have sex? Are you sure?"
I was aware that we had a lot of problems with our SL and maybe it was guilt, but that stuff really stung. In other situations or with a healthier R, that might have been considered playful. But with us it was deadly.
We have talked about this and, especially lately, he has been more playful and just responsive about it, so I'm feeling more comfortable with it.
But I admit that I do the bulk of the initiating because he can't read my mind. He doesn't know when things will be just right for me. *I* don't even know until we're in bed! That's why I come back to him showering every night as part of his routine and then going from there. I would like some of our encounters to be spontaneous, but they never will be if I have to ask him to take a shower, KWIM?
MrsCac, Maybe you could ask him to shower every night before coming to bed, explaining that it doesn't mean sex, but that the smoke smell really bothers you and makes it hard for you to even cuddle up or whatever. Seems it would be a win/win, since it would open the door to spontenaity for him as well. Do you shower before bed too? Maybe putting that into your routine as well might make it more enticing for him.
Asking him to shower every night just because doesn't seem like too much to ask to me... but who knows how he will see it.
Quote:
he started to get very sarcastic when I would suggest sex, like putting his hand to my forehead in a mock attempt to see if I was feverish, or he might say something like, "you want to have sex? Are you sure?"
I guess I was setting my goal at a couple of times a week because cac said that was his preference. I don't know how many times a week I'm capable of having sex or would truly want it because I've never explored that. Sometimes I see him coming to bed unshowered as a "break" and sometimes I'm a little disappointed.
Seems to conflict with this statement:
I want to explore my sexuality and my sex life with cac to have the best SL we can have. That is what I want.
And also brings in this statement:
The panicky feelings set in because I need to state to him that I desire sex with him before we're even in bed, so that he'll take a shower. There is nothing spontaneous about it. I've made a commitment. So I ask him to take a shower and he does and then he comes to bed assuming we will have sex. I go to bed thinking I want to have sex, but a little nervous because I'm unsure if I can actually pull it off. Why?
I think I understand what you want, but you are the one who seems to be holding you back. CAC is not helping with his smoking, so if he wants a better sex life, I think he should more seriously consider stopping smoking. Some things you may be able to get past, such as dealing with your anxiety, your worry about being good enough or being accepted, etc. but I do understand if you can’t get past the smell of smoke.
Where do these panicky feelings come from and why do you think you have them? Why are you unsure if you can “actually pull it off?” What exactly are you worried about? I don’t understand your statement.
Then there's the sensory issues. He might still have smokers' breath or my nipples might be sore or his hair might be wet (wet hair smells like wet wool to me) and all of a sudden my desire has evaporated. Now what do I do? He's there loving me and I'm so panicked by these thoughts that I'm paralyzed. And the more panicked I feel, the further away my desire is, just beyond my grasp.
You sound very sensitive to your surroundings. Are you ADD by chance? My wife does a little of what you describe, though different things. IMO, she is not so worried about what is happening on the TV, or the state of the curtains, or what happened with the kids, but rather she is using all of that as a deflection to avoid too much intimacy. She might want sex, but when it comes down to it, she avoids it emotionally. This is an avoidance tactic and a FOO issue.
Now I'm faced with a choice. I can try to push these thoughts from my mind, but they are so darned persistent. I could fake it, but I'm not a very good actress and it just seems wrong. He becomes aware of a change in me and wonders what is happening. He asks me if I'm not really interested or would rather go to sleep. I can't tell him I'm not interested. That's not fair. I told him earlier that I wanted to have sex and now I'm saying that I don't. WTF? He's now being nice about it and that almost makes it worse. What the he11 is the matter with me?
So you want sex to get closer, but then you deflect because you are now too close, then feel guilty for pushing him away…. Have I got that right?
….. I felt I had to declare *no sex unless you're showered* because you can be sure that he'll end up with crap sex otherwise. And that's not what I want. Does any of this make sense? I am trying to reverse a Pavlov's dog reaction to sex, basically because I've been trained to expect him to smell like smoke, which usually stops my desire dead in its tracks.
What attracted you to CA in the first place? I will assume he has been smoking for some time, probably when you first stated dating. Why did you marry him if his smoking repulsed you? Or was it repulsive back then?
Why is it you can only have sex with a clean, sweet smelling man? I know women prefer this, but a man is a man. We men smell. Have you ever desired or fantasized about a rough and tumble type of man, a macho, man’s man? How do you think he would smell? Like lilacs? Is there something about men in general that repulses you?
During or after the infertility, and I'm not sure when it happened, he started to get very sarcastic when I would suggest sex, like putting his hand to my forehead in a mock attempt to see if I was feverish, or he might say something like, "you want to have sex? Are you sure?"
OK, I understand. But this was years ago. Does he still do this? If not, get over it. Otherwise you are only going to frustrate you and CAC by bringing up something from the past that you cannot change. That is the convenient thing about not forgiving the past, it keeps a wedge you two that CAC can never get past, or maybe is that what you want?
But I admit that I do the bulk of the initiating because he can't read my mind. He doesn't know when things will be just right for me. *I* don't even know until we're in bed!
If I were him I would be extremely frustrated too. Quite some time ago Corri listed several things that she felt marked the difference between a sexually confident woman and a girl. I won’t bother to search for it because it was buried in an unrelated thread, but those might be goals to keep in mind (if she or someone can find them, or recreate them).
That's why I come back to him showering every night as part of his routine and then going from there. I would like some of our encounters to be spontaneous, but they never will be if I have to ask him to take a shower, KWIM?
What I read out of this is that you are taking the uncertainty of rejection, the anxiety of preparing for and following through with sex, and putting it into CAC’s court so you don’t have to deal with it. It sounds like you want the certainty of having no pressure or guilt along with the spontaneity of random encounters. It’s a good goal for you, but I think it puts CAC in a very difficult spot, don’t you think?
How would you feel if you just let CAC ravage you whenever he wanted, without advance notice, and with no control by you over the timing of the encounters (assuming they were at appropriate times and that he was usually showered and smelling good)? Would this feel scary to you? Would it be too intimate?
Dieda comes to my mind when reading your post. My first thought was that are taking control of your encounters to be sure they are on your terms. But that is not a responsibility you want and it creates anxiety in you. I also remember that CAC had some disparaging remarks about Dieda, thinking that too many on this board thought Dieda was God’s gift. I did not understand why CAC felt that way at the time, but I now sense that maybe he is like you in that he does not want to take responsibility either. So he withdraws and forces you to take the lead. Does CAC dislike Dieda because being the “Superior Man” means CAC will have to step up and take on the responsibility he is trying to throw off onto you and he does not like that?
What I wonder is whether the BOTH of you are afraid of intimacy and you each have your own way of avoiding it? Perhaps what is needed is for CAC to step up to a more assertive, alpha male role and for you to let go of your control and allow him to exert that dominance and show his desire in the way that the manly CAC wants to. Otherwise you continuing to rescue him and play that role for him is just going to keep frustrating the both of you. (BTW, I am making a few assumption in this last editorial bit.)
1) I can always count on you to ask the tough questions.
Those tough question are what help me the most because I have to think through your sitch which isn't always easy either.
2) Did anyone ever tell you that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar?
Yep, but I also found that honey doesn't always lead to growth. Plus your stuff is way too complicated to think through plus sugar coat.
3) Do you have an axe to grind?
Nope, I honestly enjoy the challenge of understanding these kinds of issues. It has helped my a LOT in my marriage.
4) Is there something about me that reminds you of your wife?
Yes, I sense some avoidance of intimacy in your latest post, plus some fear issues. I could be wrong. Generally I find Hairdog's wife reminds me more of my wife.
Where do these panicky feelings come from and why do you think you have them? Why are you unsure if you can “actually pull it off?” What exactly are you worried about? I don’t understand your statement.
I think this is the hardest thing to explain to an HD person. I have the impression that HD people, well men anyway, are pretty much ready for sex pretty much all the time. It's like you just switch a flip and bingo! 0-60 in an instant. It's always there whenever you need it. I know this is a generalization, but that's the way it seems.
Let me tell you, I WISH it were that simple for me. I would love to just be ready for sex at the drop of a hat. But I'm not, most of the time. Sadly, I think I actually was more ready physically when I was younger, but I was all messed up with my issues, so I didn't take advantage of it.
So, I'll say it. It takes work. Mental effort. Switching of gears. Letting go of worries. Switching of hats. Sometimes I can do it, and sometimes I can't. It depends on a whole bunch of factors including time of the month, time of the day (I am not a night person), how long it's been since I got QT, how long it's been since my last argument with cac, how my day went with S4, smells and other sensory issues, and so on. The only time these are not issues is during ovulation when I'm taking a hormone bath. If cac and I are to have hot monkey sex, it's then. But I know that it won't last and then I'm sort of on my own.
Actually, I sometimes worry that I can't compete with myself, the self I am when I'm ovulating. That I set the bar based on how I am during ovulation and then I don't measure up the rest of the month.
I do not have confidence in my abilities to feel sexual on demand. It is not something I feel all day long like many of you. It is here and there, fleeting, appearing in certain situations, disappearing in others. Again, it depends on many factors like those I listed above.
So imagine if you will, trying to attempt to do something, not having confidence in your ability to do it, but knowing that you need to try, that you want to try, and that if you don't try, or if you fail, you'll disappoint not only yourself but another person whom you love deeply. Ugh. Doesn't sound very good, does it?
You sound very sensitive to your surroundings. Are you ADD by chance?
I am a classic Highly Sensitive Person (sorry Lou, but it's true ). I have had sensory issues my whole life. I find the bright sun almost painful without sunglasses; I have tactile issues, for example, I wear gloves when handling raw meat because I can't stand the feel of it, and I'm getting wrinkled unnessecarily because I can't stand the feel of skin lotion on my fingers; smells can make me physically ill, or at least terribly distracted.
I've read about symptoms of ADD and they don't seem to fit. Crazy Eddie and I talked about this a bit on his thread.
I *used to* be very sensitive to surroundings and typically had a laundry list of things that had to be done or in place or what have you in order to have sex. I know that was frustrating for Cac, because the list was always changing. I'm sure some of you men can relate. I don't think I'm like that so much now. I've changed/matured/mellowed and things that used to bug me don't affect me so much.
My wife does a little of what you describe, though different things. IMO, she is not so worried about what is happening on the TV, or the state of the curtains, or what happened with the kids, but rather she is using all of that as a deflection to avoid too much intimacy. She might want sex, but when it comes down to it, she avoids it emotionally. This is an avoidance tactic and a FOO issue.
"A deflection to avoid too much intimacy." What does that mean, exactly? That seems a little vague to me. Can you explain how she can want sex but then avoid it emotionally?
So you want sex to get closer, but then you deflect because you are now too close, then feel guilty for pushing him away…. Have I got that right?
I'm not sure that the reason I want sex is to get closer. I want sex because it feels good, because I love him, because cac feels loved when he has sex with me, because we can love each other in that unique way, because a good sex life will improve the quality of our R and our lives in general, and because I've wasted enough time missing the boat.
What attracted you to CA in the first place?
He was a good listener. He was my friend. He was really cute. He was really intelligent. Competent is a good word to describe cac. He was everything my father was not, right down to his physical build and coloring. I wrote at length about this when I started posting in Feb. He took me for an airplane ride when he was 20, and I was smitten. I remember specifically sitting behind him in his father's Champ (single engine tail dragger with pilot in the front, passenger seat right behind) and feeling sexually attracted to him -- his broad shoulders, command of the aircraft, confidence in his abilities as a pilot. His behavior was extremely manly and it was sexy. That was right around the time our relationship switched from friends to dating.
I will assume he has been smoking for some time, probably when you first stated dating. Why did you marry him if his smoking repulsed you? Or was it repulsive back then?
He has smoked since he was 16. I married him because I was in love with him. Several people have commented to me over the years that they hate smoking so much they could never marry a smoker. My response was, "well look what I would have missed out on if I had split up with cac just because he smoked." I suppose in my youth I assumed that he would quit at some point.
). I have had sensory issues my whole life. I find the bright sun almost painful without sunglasses; I have tactile issues, for example, I wear gloves when handling raw meat because I can't stand the feel of it, and I'm getting wrinkled unnessecarily because I can't stand the feel of skin lotion on my fingers; smells can make me physically ill, or at least terribly distracted.