Mixed signals - catfan's continual saga part???

[Dom R]

Ah. sorry to hear that.

Is your wife one of those people who almost never says "no" directly? but makes up excuses why she "cant" do things she doesnt want to do?

very difficult to have a real conversation or recovery plan with that type of person.

I'd say just focus on enjoying the movie together. and offer to pay.

[catfan]

Dom I think she's just trying to avoid it all and hopes it all goes away somehow or is miraculously fixed. She avoids conflict if she can. So I sent her an email and said "So I am to assume right now you aren't interested in attending the retrouvaille weekend on the 14th. I understand it was a bit sudden and all. I thought it an opportunity that we should at least look at and that's why I brought it up. That said, yes I am interested in hearing your thoughts and feelings."

She replied her trip was around two events on the 11th and 14 and said nothing more.

I replied "Well when I saw the dates I figured this might conflict so don't worry I'm not upset or anything like that. Just surprised you just sent the calendar appointment and didn't say anything otherwise. That's all.

Still looking forward to catching the movie this afternoon. :-)"

She's not sent an email or text about it since. But did text me a thanks after I sent a text saying I had the movie tickets.

Classic avoidance move on her part. I'm expecting that she'll say she didn't want to discuss it while at work. This if you ask me is a classic example of why we need to go to something like retrouvaille. We have to learn how to communicate!

[Dom R]

ah, conflict avoider.
if thats the way she lives her life.. then you're in for a rough ride. or at least, a very frustrating one.
The fact that she wont face (and thus resolve) conflict, means she wont be willing to commit to any kind of plan, and any kind of confrontation about her unwillingness to do that... will just be avoided.


I dont think she was worried at all that "you were upset". I think she would be upset if you didnt "get the message", that she's not going to cooperate with you

This if you ask me is a classic example of why we need to go to something like retrouvaille. We have to learn how to communicate!

no, you dont need to learn to communicate. you need to learn how to problem-solve together. Those are technically two very separate skills.

I think perhaps that they teach both... but if she has decided she wont go, then there's nothing you can do about it.
She's probably going to do the same thing to any kind of "work on your marriage" suggestion that you bring up.
You're going to have to decide what you are going to do about that, if anything.

[catfan]

Yes you are right about problem solving. But it's both and she readily admits we need to work on communication.

What's really funny is when we talk and work on things she feels a great deal better. Unfortunately I almost have to force the issues in order for action to happen. If I don't she continually avoids and ultimately never feels better because the issue never got addressed.

You did hit the nail on the head about frustration. It's been a very, very frustration ride. Things appear to be on the mends then boom she withdrawals. Strangely she's said on a number of occasions that she wants to fall back in love with me, she would like us to be together again, etc. She's just not willing to do the work, at least right now.

Well we'll see what she says in about 2.5 hours.

[Dom R]

well, keep something in mind... when she withdraws.. it may not be "just to piss you off, and screw up your marriage".. heh... it maybe simply because you are pushing things faster than she is comfortable.

The CA dodging of the weekend, says to me, that she's not comfortable talking about this further with you (at least for a while)

[side note:she didnt say "I'm sorry i cant make it, but I'd like to go another time". she didnt even put up the effort to directly claim she "cant go", because you could argue with that. she wants to get out of going completely, without it being labeled as her fault you are not going]



So, you might want to ease off, and just enjoy the movie.

[catfan]

Well time for some updating my thread. It's been a week since my last post. We enjoyed the movie but the conversation afterwards was difficult for both of us. I'm pretty sure she left angry, resentful, bitter and wondering why she was even trying. But things were said that needed to be said.

Since last Wed a lot of water has past under the bridge and a lot of emotions experienced by both of us and it all needed to happen. Because if it didn't then last night couldn't have happened.

Last night we a preplanned time to chat about setting up a regular time for us to have our conversations. We easily settled on Wednesday at lunch. But I had decided it was time to take a major risk and get us moving forward. I decided to talk about a "Healing Process" and how "being friends again" was only part of that process. That our situation was such that we should seek professional assistance in navigating through the process. Also the process will be difficult, we will experience a great deal of pain at times and it is going to be difficult at times but we must get through it to be friends again. Before we even begin to start we have to agree to be completely honest with each other, open minded and hearted. She agreed with all of this and would like to get started.

So I said that the first thing I felt we must do is address the most immediate points that we each have that are challenges to the process. For me it's trust for her it ended up being my anger and my flipflopping of feelings along with the sep agreement. She feels I hold the agreement over her head and she can't be comfortable until we have it settled. She said she feels I use it to control her and try to manipulate her. I guess in some ways I do, I have just not wanted to deal with it. So I will deal with it today.

For me trust, I don't feel like I can trust a word she says or a thing she does. I tried to explain to her how I don't like feeling this way and outlined how things happened that caused me to feel this way. Mainly the possibilities of an EA. She got angry about it all because she feels I am being unreasonable and can't see how the series of events looks even remotely bad. But she settled and we talked. I do believe her know that nothing is going on. What's happened is he's an old friend who likes to chit chat and this friendship is making her feel good because it has zero expectations. They haven't seen each other and really just email and text. She told me about his goings on and such so I feel better about it all.

Now the biggest thing of all, we have decided to see a counselor together with the goal that this person help us navigate the healing process to be friends again. Only once we are there can we begin to consider reconciliation. She's open to reconciliation but "not expecting it" which is understandable. Time is now to use being friends again to change her mind on that point. For me I know we have to be friends again before anything else. Also it may never come to anything else and if that happens it'll hurt like hell but I will know I have grown and learned new skills. I also know I won't be alone for the first time here I will admit to considering dating and have had some excellent prospects. But I decided against it because there's so much at stake, so many lives and hearts involved that I owe it to myself and everyone else to go through hell and back in every effort.

[Dom R]

She feels I hold the agreement over her head and she can't be comfortable until we have it settled. She said she feels I use it to control her and try to manipulate her.

SUCKER!!!

she is using it to manipulate you

But she's such a pro at manupulating you, she's claiming that you are the one manipulating her. So she gets to manipulate you into doing what she wants (doing the separation agreement) AND make you feel guilty about it, rather than recognizing that's what she wants to happen.

Now the biggest thing of all, we have decided to see a counselor together with the goal that this person help us navigate the healing process to be friends again. Only once we are there can we begin to consider reconciliation.

I dont think she was ready for this. i think she only said this, to give the appearance of being willing to work on things, so you would move forward on the separation agreement.

Proof: If someone is sincere about doing counselling, ,and "trying to be friends".. they dont need a separation agreement.
My guess is that she'll try anything (for a short time at least) to get you to sign a more favourable agreement.
Been there, done that, unfortunately.

I think you made a huge mistake in diving back into the R talk. I hope i'm wrong: it's entirely possible. but given the similar ways your wife, and mine, seem to react and manipulate.... I have a bad feeling i'm not.

Or even if I'm right.. i hope that the counsellor might convince her to change her mind.

Best wishes, and may God bless your efforts.



Oh, ps:

What's happened is he's an old friend who likes to chit chat and this friendship is making her feel good because it has zero expectations.

This is the "plausible deniability" excuse. Do NOT believe it.
Women who have affairs, keep claiming "he's just a friend" right up to, and sometimes even past, the time they hop into bed with one another. They may even convince themselves it's true. but it isnt. You Do have reason to be worried about it.


hint: if they talk to each other every day, its at minimum an EA, even if your wife doesnt recognize it as such.
But if you ask her "how often do you talk to each other? every day?" she'll probably deny it.

As soon as you are officially "separated" though, she'll probably feel free to pursue it more seriously, though, rather than playing fancy mind games with herself about it ("he's just a friend i'm not doing anything wrong")

[catfan]

Dom a bit jaded are we? Well all good advice from you and I appreciate your input.

No I do not think she's trying to manipulate me with the sep agreement. We've talked about it a lot and I readily admit I am the biggest reason it's not done. I've ignored it, gotten angry about it and all because I don't want a divorce. It's time for me to step up and accept everything that is happening and has happened in our lives. An early step in the healing process is getting this done.

As for the OM, well I just have to trust her about it. I still have a lot of reservations about it. They probably text every 3 or so days. He almost always initiates them. It appears phone calls are limited to a couple a month. She told me last night he moved to FL with his girl friend and I got some initial confirmation on that today. But I suspect some form of EA even if she doesn't see it that way.

Bottom line here, I can go with the flow a bit, offer it some gentle nudges here and there, be friendly, nice and show love. If it's meant to be then we'll be friends again and more. Right now I have nothing left to loose other than the possibilities of reconciliation. As Michele says, you have to make sure you have tried everything otherwise regret will always haunt you. As for my wife I can see she believes this a bit and that's why she's still around. Also she still around because deep inside her there is at least part of her that wants this to work out. She's said she's open to reconciliation and even would like to think we can. That's all I need to hear and going forward we both need to see action.

[Dom R]

No I do not think she's trying to manipulate me with the sep agreement. We've talked about it a lot and I readily admit I am the biggest reason it's not done. I've ignored it, gotten angry about it and all because I don't want a divorce.

How does that equate to you, "hold[ing] the agreement over her head" ??? that does not add up.
She's the one who wants it. She IS manipulating you to get it done with.

It's time for me to step up and accept everything that is happening and has happened in our lives. An early step in the healing process is getting this done.

Umm.. how and why do you need to "accept everything that has happened"? "accepting" means "its ok that your wife wants to be separated from you, and probably get a divorce from you".
catfan.. you really need to get your head cleared, guy, and stop breathing in the smoke she's blowing in your face :(...
In no way, shape or form, does writing up a separation agreement, "help the healing process", unless the "healing process" you want done, is to get a divorce from a person that makes you unhappy, and find someone else.

If you believe it's important to get the separation agreement out of the way, that's your choice. Please dont delude yourself as to its purpose, though. A "separation agreement", is to cement a separation. Not marital reconciliation.

reconciliation may happen in spite of that. She might change her mind once she doesnt have that to fight about.
But the odds are against it. It truely sounds like she's just playing along with counselling, to "play nice", so that you'll give her the separation agreement she wants. This is a really really common thing.
"going to councelling" does not in any way mean she will actually cooperate in it. One of the worst things that can happen, (judging by some peoples' marital histories that I've read) is dragging a person into counselling, who isnt really motivated to try. It makes them even more resistant to it, when the timing is better.
Go too early, they'll sit there and be non-cooperative, and no progress will be made. Then quit, becuase "it isnt working".
And then later on when it might have otherwise been GOOD to go to counselling, "well, we tried that, and it didnt work. I'm not going to do that again".

She's going, because she wants the separation agreement done. Not because she actually wants to work on your marriage/relationship.
You jumped into it too early.

Anyone wanna back me up on this?



I'll note you didnt reply to my point about "someone sincere about trying counselling, etc., doesnt need a separation agreement".


I'm glad to hear that the OM has moved away. That's really great news, and I'm happy for you on that.

[NewHorizons]

Catfan,

Dom R's logic is pretty tight on this. Counseling and separation agreements are two separate things, keep them that way. If you don't want a separation, then don't work on the agreement. Once that's done there is absolutely no going back. Keep that in mind. You have to let the counseling play it's part and fight to keep all talk of the agreement separate from that. Personally, I'd make up a counseling agreement as well if you're going to continue to go that route, specify the length of the counseling period and indemnity for failure to comply (heck, link it to specific clauses in the separation agreement). See how it goes? The minute you sign this she'll probably drop out, or close thereafter. She's holding this over your head to get counseling done but I seriously doubt she's in it for more than your signature on the dotted line then "everything will work out". For her, that is.

Think this through and see what advice you would give yourself. Would you really recommend that you sign this agreement or even work on it as a prerequisite for counseling? I wouldn't, and I don't.

NH