This is from Kettricken's "Empathy Spectrum" on the other thread:
Extreme "fused" empathy with the other's feelings. Acknowlegement of the other's feelings means no decision can be made which would cause those feelings to be discounted or "violated". One's own agenda consistently takes a back seat through unwillingness to see a partner suffer preventable emotional pain, unwillingness to "be the bad guy".
This is so me that it's scary. However, I think I do sometimes rebel against it and then I appear like her category 1:
Refusal to acknowlege the other's feelings as valid, logical, worthwhile, important, etc. Decisions made purely on one's own agenda and desires.
I would guess that I'm not the only dysfunctional person who vacillates between categories. ******************* This morning I confronted cac with another issue I had and it wasn't good. I didn't even intend to get into this but it happened anyway. My parents had been visiting the area for 3 weeks and during that time I purposely didn't bring up any issues because doing so usually makes things between cac and me temporarily worse. I did not want to get into any conversations with my mother about my marriage and I didn't have an appointment with the C, so I thought the only thing I could do was to suppress my feelings and issues. This, of course, is never a good idea. Whenever I do this, it always comes out, at the worst time and in the worst way.
He left for work angry and he hasn't even seen this stuff yet. His anger scares me, not because of him, but because of ME. I'm afraid of his anger. I feel responsible for it in a way. I feel like I have to choose between making him angry or suppressing my feelings and both choices are destructive. Lose-lose.
She writes about empathy and her #3 about fused empathy is totally me. I can't stand the fact that cac might feel hurt by some of this, and I actually feel responsible for what you wrote.
Why do you feel responsible if Cac4 is upset or sad? Do you believe it is your responsibility to "make" him happy? Do you believe it is HIS responsibility to "make" you happy?
I know it's out of fashion to use the "No Pain, no gain" mantra but really it is true. The problem is to distinguish the "good" pain which allows for growth and the "bad" pain of a tear or strain.
While a lot of this might seem harsh, from an outsider's POV I see cac4 and you as having the same struggles everyone does. Honestly I think both of you probably have more difficulty with SELF-INFLICTED pressures and disappointments than in demands from the other.
For example, Mrscac4, if you feel that QT is important, you might also feel that if cac4 doesn't want to spend QT with you it is a JUDGMENT of how he feels about you, how interesting you are, etc. And instead it may just be his discomfort with opening up.
On the other hand cac4 may see your awkwardness with initiating as a sign of not being attracted to him when in reality you may be very attracted to him to the point of feeling awkward.
The both of you may be looking for the other to "make" you feel something. Cobra and I disagree on this but I really think you have to look to yourself first. It gives you some control AND takes some pressure off your partner.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
1) put up with less sex, intimacy, validation, etc, 2) rattle the cage enough to bring about change and repair the marriage, 3) leave.
Is working on yourself NOT an option? I could see it I guess as a 1A or 2A option - put up with less TEMPORARILY while you work on your own issues??? Working on your own issues might rattle the cage in some relationships and in others it would be the space needed for the other person to relax too.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
The very fact that your wife would come on here and try to retract her statements and exhibit fear of your anger says a lot. Is this what you wanted when you first started posting?
Ugh. Ugh. This is just getting worse. My fear is all about me. It's about me. It's not about him. If I could delete the post, I could avoid confrontation. Or whatever I perceive that he might think or feel about himself or about me when he reads these posts. I feel like I need to protect him.
I saw a book yesterday at the bookstore called "The Narcissistic Family." It said it was written for therapists by therapists. Is this one that you've mentioned here?
I read the first few paragraphs and it was scary how much it applied to me. I intended to buy the book, but when I realized it was $40, I put it back.
Anyway, I suspect that these feelings of protection and parentification stem directly from my FOO. Parentification is what comes naturally to me based on my conditioning.
Cobra and I disagree on this but I really think you have to look to yourself first. It gives you some control AND takes some pressure off your partner.
I don't want my comments to get too far astray from how I feel about this. In MrsCAC's case, I do agree that both she and CAC are WAAAY too enmeshed, meaning each has a very low level of self esteem and is looking to the other to boost that esteem. As we have seen, with people like this, boosting each other's esteem (which is what each wants) will backfire because each feels like the boost is made out of pity, and therefore they are "one-down" to their partner. A lose-lose catch-22 cycle.
My comments were based on the reality the we all have a dark side of ego and narcissism, that we can never be fully self validating and completely happy alone. IMO, to get to the theoretically ideal state of being completely happy alone is simply not possible for the posters on this board. We are all too damaged. A partner gives us the boost we need, and we have seen examples of how the right spouse can make your happiness. As long as the two people can reach a balance that will not deteriorate into fighting and withholding of validation, such an arrangement may be good enough. IMO, that is reality.
Why do you feel responsible if Cac4 is upset or sad? Do you believe it is your responsibility to "make" him happy? Do you believe it is HIS responsibility to "make" you happy?
My gut response is that yes, I feel responsible if cac is upset or sad and I feel responsible for making him happy. I pretty much feel responsible for everything. I felt responsible for making my mother happy. It's the parentification role I adopted.
I don't think I believe that it's his responsibility to make me happy, but I think on some level HE thinks it is. In fact, he has said to me in the past, when I've been upset and he's been wishing he could fix the problem, "I just want you to be happy."
Lately I am convinced that he is miserable, and because he's spent half of his life with me, *I* have made him miserable. Sometimes I think the he would have been happier had he not married me. Yes, I feel responsible for his unhappiness.
For example, Mrscac4, if you feel that QT is important, you might also feel that if cac4 doesn't want to spend QT with you it is a JUDGMENT of how he feels about you, how interesting you are, etc. And instead it may just be his discomfort with opening up.
Yes, I have definitely felt this way, and it goes back to my FOO issues with my mother. Logically I know that he finds it difficult to open up, but I always end up thinking that he doesn't talk to me because he doesn't want to talk to ME.
And how do you think he feels? Can you empathize if he thinks he's responsible for your unhappiness?
I always end up thinking that he doesn't talk to me because he doesn't want to talk to ME.
And again can you understand that he might have the same feeling, that you don't want to make love to him because of how you feel about him?
You and I may know that's not true but can you see how his feeling of rejection is the same as your feeling of rejection. REALLY sad when you realize that in reality you both LOVE each other and you two are just struggling with being able to show it and receive it.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
If QT is uncomfortable for CAC, then asking him to deal with it so you can be comfortable may not seem fair to him. But he may be able to deal with some lesser amount, knowing that you are having to deal with provide him PT. Since you two are in a sort of power struggle, I think it important that you both feel like you are sacrificing equally.
I don't think that any HD guy here with an LD wife, cac included wants to think that his wife is "dealing with provid[ing] him PT" or that she is "sacrificing." This was the point of my OP.
Would my "dealing with" and "sacrificing" be more acceptable because I'm trying to improve the SL? How is this different that my "dealing with" and "sacrificing" when I was just LD?
Fran responded that it can be a problem "if it is obvious it is an effort or a chore to speak the other person's LL. If it is done with bad grace and a certain amount of grousing or unwillingness."
And I say, obvious to whom? How can we be objective about this? Sex is such a hot-button issue for all of us that I think we tend to read into it what we believe and not necessarily what is actually in front of us.
Hmm, that's a tough one. It comes down to the vibe that is given off I think. There is a subtle difference between being game and being permissive. When she's sending off signals of let's take care of you but I'm not interested in getting off myself or hurry up and finish, then it isn't the least bit appealing. I might as well be boinking a blow-up doll. On the other hand, when she gives off signals that she wants it (for her, not to satisfy me) then it is great. It's perhaps a subtle difference, but it shows through pretty clearly.
Think of it in terms of QT. It is the like difference between asking you how you feel about something, but not taking the extra effort needed to put yourself in the other's shoes to really understand the response. You've done enough to fill the square asking about her feelings, but haven't really done all that is needed to grok the feeling, KWIM?
See, it isn't offensive that she has to try, it is more a dissappointment that the need is only getting met superficially. Can you see the difference, and that one is satisfying while the other, while the effort is appreciated, kind of misses the mark? It is extremely frustrating to see her try so hard and still miss the mark.
For me, I am a PT and QT guy. MrsGGB is WOA and AOS. We have little if any overlap in our LL's, which I am sure is as frustrating to her as it is to me. I can't get MrsGGB to talk to me about her feelings. Even with the Marriage Encounter dialog, getting to her feelings was like pulling teeth, as she just wouldn't let me see inside. I'm not sure which is more frustrating for me, the lack of QT and not sharing feelings (she insists she does) or the awkwardness in bed. In both cases, it often feels to me like I am a chore that has to be done rather than something that is willingly shared, and that simply makes me feel awful.
My gut response is that yes, I feel responsible if cac is upset or sad and I feel responsible for making him happy. I pretty much feel responsible for everything. I felt responsible for making my mother happy. It's the parentification role I adopted.
There is nothing wrong with the FOO issue per se. Just because you feel responsible for Chuck should not create an issue for the marriage. The problem as I understand these things is how you REACT to your feeling of responsibility. You get anxious and panicky, hold back on what you need to say, then blow up. It is your blowing up that affects Chuck and that scares him. He does exactly the same thing, right?
Then both of you fall into the guilt cycle for having blown up and set the marriage back. So you each pull back into your shell and let the resentment start to build, blaming one another for your show of anger and for having been "forced" into that action by the other. Can you see this cycle?
Understanding your FOO does not mean you have to change anything about it except how you react to similar situations for only in those times does it affect your spouse. The hardest part is NOT reacting to your emotions. Those reactions are preconditioned to avoid some idea impending disaster. As you withhold your reaction, you must go on faith that your partner will not create that disaster and you both can get through the crisis intact and ok. This is the behavioral conditioning part of recovery. After a while it becomes easier to quell the panic and know that chaos will not result.
So this has nothing to do with any weakness or flaw in you or Chuck. It has nothing to do with either of you rejecting the other. It has to do with conditioned responses that need to be reprogrammed. If the both of you can try really hard to get on board with this concept, you will be able to see quick changes.
