Do you also think a lot of men use MB as a way of avoiding intimacy too?
Heywyre
M - 57 H - 65 1st A-bomb - Nov 27/02 2nd A-bomb - Dec 13/06 together 21 years *************************** Insanity is doing something over and over and expecting different results (Albert Einstein)
I think empathy gets a bit easier when you commit yourself to a course of empathy *without* surrender.
I think that's what I'm doing, by talking with her about her feelings, but doing so with a stated purpose of trying to make this trip "okay" for both of us. Even if she is not "okay" with it, and I end up going, at least I tried to talk with her about it. Is this the "empathy without surrender" you're talking about? If not, some examples would be helpful to me.
Yes, I guess that's pretty much what I meant. "Empathy Without Surrender" is a new concept I just made up, and you want me to give examples? You are making me think ..... actually, thanks!
I guess I was imagining an "Empathy Spectrum" something like this:
1. Refusal to acknowlege the other's feelings as valid, logical, worthwhile, important, etc. Decisions made purely on one's own agenda and desires.
2. Acknowlegement of the other's feelings as valid, logical, worthwhile and important based on their perception of reality, history, coping mechanisms, etc. Decisions made weighing the case on its merits and taking into consideration the needs and desires of *both* parties. Decisions will sometimes favor one's own agenda and other times favor one's mate's agenda.
3. Extreme "fused" empathy with the other's feelings. Acknowlegement of the other's feelings means no decision can be made which would cause those feelings to be discounted or "violated". One's own agenda consistently takes a back seat through unwillingness to see a partner suffer preventable emotional pain, unwillingness to "be the bad guy".
Scenario (1) could be either the result of pure selfishness, or a desperate attempt to avoid (3). If you think your partner's feelings are "crazy" and don't validate them at all, it's easier to proceed with your plans regardless of the pain it may cause them (self-inflicted or not).
I see "empathy without sacrifice" as the "decisions will sometimes favor one's own agenda" variant of (2). Discussing and accepting your mate's objections to any proposed plan as valid and important; "their truth" ... seeking compromise if possible ... but not letting that stop you from doing what you believe to be the right thing *for you*, even if they may suffer some pain/anger/disappoinment as a result. Which is what you are proposing to do.
I am still trying to wrap my head around this myself ... I can look in my past and see instances where I tried to invalidate my husband's emotions or reason him out of feeling them so I wouldn't have to choose between causing him pain and losing myself....
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
The thing that fascinates me about your sich, HD, is that you remind me so much of my father and your first wife sounds so much like my mother and MsHD seems so much like the kind of woman my father might have chosen to marry on the rebound from my mother as a sort of antidote to the disease of her chaos. Even your FOO is a lot like my father's. (Does your daughter from your first marriage tend towards curiosity and cookie eating? If so, you might want to slap a chastity belt on her before age 13.)If your 2 wives were to wrestle, which one do you think would win? I actually have a serious reason for asking this question.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
MsHD seems so much like the kind of woman my father might have chosen to marry on the rebound from my mother as a sort of antidote to the disease of her chaos.
Yep. I once wrote a letter to a friend contrasting the two women. The contrasts were especially strong in the area of "clean" living and work ethic.
Quote:
Does your daughter from your first marriage tend towards curiosity and cookie eating?
Not so much on the curiosity, but definitely addicted to sweets/cookies. Uh, oh.
Quote:
If your 2 wives were to wrestle, which one do you think would win?
I think that, if it was a "fair" fight, Ms.Hdog would definitely win. She's stronger, and, uh, sturdier. However, my ex would be the first one to pull a knife or gun, so we'd have to search 'em before the opening bell.
Hairdog, who's kind of amused at the thought of such a fight, but who's totally freaked about the thought of raising a mini mojo.
Maybe just a wacky little theory but it seems to me that both of your wives have strong but opposing personalities. Maybe you've been trying to beat MsHD at her own game a little too much and you might do better by playing it more like your ex might, if you can construct that in a way that wouldn't be dysfunctional. MsHD is like SuperCop and you are not quite SuperCop. Maybe you should be SuperRobber instead. That might be more sexy. Does this make sense?
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Okay, let me see if I can explain myself better. MsHd is all about rules, law and order. To an extent this is actually what you appreciate about her. However, she's kind of like a dictator or an out-of-control bureaucracy. You can never win if you go by her rules because although she will never break the rules (like your ex) she will always make new rules on top of the old rules to maintain control. So you need to be like a revolutionary in order to level the playing field. This is hard for you because you are a Type 6 so you need to think like a Type 7 (but a higher functioning one than your X) IMO that is the only way you will be able to reach the vulnerable woman hiding behind the power structure. However, I think you really need to ask yourself if you actually prefer the order/structure she provides for you in her current modus operandi to the sex she might provide if she was relieved of her responsibilities.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
My above post was lame because I forgot to add the part that goes OR you could just leave MsHD and become instantly f*ckable just the way you are. We're all kind of masochistic on this BB. It's like we want to be told why we might be unf*ckable so we have some hope of fixing it. If I had never joined this BB, I would probably have just left my miserable 2bx lost a few lbs., got my hair done and bought a couple hot dresses and declared myself quite f*ckable like every other woman on the planet who finds herself single again for any reason. Because I spent so long on this BB, I convinced myself that I had some mysterious anti-f*ckability syndrome. Before my marriage I never felt unf*ckable except for the usual temporary bad hair day type reasons. Has any HD person who participated in this BB or had a LD spouse who participated in this BB and ended up getting divorced had trouble getting laid post-SSM ?
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
It's like we want to be told why we might be unf*ckable so we have some hope of fixing it.
You replace "unf*ckable" with anything else....I know I had the same problem in my R. I wanted to believe there was something wrong with me because that meant I could fix it. If my H was just an @ss, there's not a whole lot I can do to change that right? I agree that although this BB is wonderful, it can encourage one to take on more than their fair share of responsibility for the problems in their R's.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
