Of course being desired is a really good way of being validated. And having someone clearly not desire you is a good way of being anti-validated. For those who crave validation at that particular time, "making an effort" just draws attention to the fact that you aren't carried away by passion the way they assume you would be with a more desirable partner. And sometimes that turns out to be the truth.
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
I think there are two sides to this validation question of yours. One side is that CAC does need to learn your language and do his part in validating you as you would like.
Right. I'm looking for a little effort but I haven't really seen it. The problem is that when I have attempted to initiate talks about R issues I get nowhere. I'm starting to withhold my concerns about things because there doesn't seem to be any point in bringing them up. I know this is bad. Not sure what to do about it.
The other part is for you to learn why you need QT as your LL (yep, it's a FOO issue).
I can see why I need QT as my LL. I said yesterday on hairdog's thread that it has to do with my mother. Are you suggesting I need to do something about it or that there's a problem with it? And why does cac need PT as his LL?
Your task is to find a way to accept another LL in addition to QT, one that CAC is more willing to give. If he has to make all the LL accommodations and shift his LL to yours, then the tables might swing around and he could become resentful while you are happy. That's not good either. Find an equitable compromise you can both live with.
I honestly believe that I've made the bulk of the LL accomodations over the last few months. And you're right--doing so can make one resentful. Why is it my task to find a way to accept another LL? I don't expect him to shift his LL to mine! I know that he feels loved through PT. I'm not suggesting that we spend all our time talking. What's wrong with some talk and some sex? Isn't that an equitable compromise? IMO, we've had more sex than talk over the last few months. And I sure ain't Mojo.
If you are willing to make an effort but have not yet come to the point of being desirous, he might feel like he is being desirous but you are merely holding back. Furthermore, he might he is making himself vulnerable by showing his desire, but you are still hiding behind your walls and using the excuse that you are willing to try but you just aren't there yet. My question would be when are you going to get there, if ever?
First off, it would be nice to know what he thinks about this. Mostly I feel like I'm operating in the dark.
He isn't showing any desire now. It's been nearly 2 weeks since our last encounter, so now it will be up to me to break the fast and initiate. If I don't initiate now, he won't likely. This is usually the way it goes for us. If we have more frequent encounters he will show desire, but he still rarely initiates. And I feel uncomfortable doing it, but I do it. I do feel differently about sex now. I think about it more often and desire it more often than I used to, in spite of not feeling particularly loved in my LL.
When am I going to get there? I don't know. Because I feel like I'm doing most or all of the "work," I'm feeling a bit like the mother instead of the wife or partner. There has been very little partnership in fixing our marriage problems, as I see it. I believe that cac still thinks that most of the problems with our R are mine.
I think the way to counter this to to make yourself equally vulnerable (which makes it seem fair the the man) by explaining your fears and why you are holding back, and what steps you have taken that he may not be able to see. At least he will know you are slowing moving forward and not slowly moving backward.
If this board came with sounds, you'd be hearing that "wrong answer" buzzer right now. I believe I am vulnerable. I believe that I wear my vulnerability on my sleeve, at least with him. I have told cac my fears and my issues and my concerns ad nauseum. Ask him. He doesn't like to hear it. Anything but that. It makes him very uncomfortable.
I'm aware that he is more likely to talk to me, more likely to want to spend QT with me, etc. IF we have recently ML. I know this. But there are always reasons that we don't maintain regular ML (say 2x a week), and those reasons originate with both of us, not just me.
Here's an example. I've written about cac's smoking and how it bothers me. He will shower at night sometimes, but it usually is with the expectation that we will have sex. (I drew a boundary and told him that I wouldn't have sex unless he was showered.) I'm not interested (at least right now) in having sex every night. However, I'd love to be able to cuddle etc. during those "off" nights, with him showered of course. I don't see this as an option, if he expects sex every time he comes to bed showered. This makes me feel pressured to perform. So he only showers when he thinks we will have sex, which really means missed opportunities for one thing leading to another.
Another issue is leaving sex for the last thing at night. I've suggested getting an earlier start when I'm more awake but it just doesn't happen. I'd rather put the kid to bed and then get to it and THEN watch TV or whatever. It is really not a priority. It gets put off until later and then I'm too tired (yes I really am) and it doesn't happen and then we get back on our hamster wheels again.
I think that not allowing yourself to be vulnerable could be trigger CAC's abandonment issues (just a guess).
Lou, would you offer this advice to a HD PT-LL person? I wouldn't think so. And that's what I was getting at.
Is it ever exciting or fun for you? If so explain to Cac when it is and ask him to do the things more when it is more fun/pleasurable.
It's not that it isn't exciting or fun. We have talked about what I like and what he likes. The problem is that we have general R problems that rear their ugly heads in the bedroom.
The whole feed-back chain needs to be improved. It can work with QT. Don’t expect Cac to figure out what you like about QT, after you feel some good QT has happened, tell Cac which times/parts of the QT meant the most to you.
I have done this a few times. I still think it's a question of understanding another person's LL when it's different from your own. I sometimes think that he doesn't take QT as seriously as PT.
I can see why I need QT as my LL. I said yesterday on hairdog's thread that it has to do with my mother. Are you suggesting I need to do something about it or that there's a problem with it? And why does cac need PT as his LL?
I’m only suggesting that some common ground needs to be found to meet both our your needs. If QT is uncomfortable for CAC, then asking him to deal with it so you can be comfortable may not seem fair to him. But he may be able to deal with some lesser amount, knowing that you are having to deal with provide him PT. Since you two are in a sort of power struggle, I think it important that you both feel like you are sacrificing equally.
I honestly believe that I've made the bulk of the LL accommodations over the last few months. And you're right--doing so can make one resentful. Why is it my task to find a way to accept another LL?
Do you want the marriage to work or not? I’m not saying to drop your favorite LL, but to take some of the pressure off him until he is more comfortable with QT. Give him the chance to show you he cares in his own way, but still trying to give you some QT.
What's wrong with some talk and some sex? Isn't that an equitable compromise? IMO, we've had more sex than talk over the last few months.
I think that sounds like a reasonable compromise. What does he think? Does he know you feel this way?
He isn't showing any desire now. It's been nearly 2 weeks since our last encounter, so now it will be up to me to break the fast and initiate. If I don't initiate now, he won't likely. This is usually the way it goes for us. If we have more frequent encounters he will show desire, but he still rarely initiates.
Chuck has some MAJOR denial and issues to work through. He is more like an automaton than a feeling human. He has completely shut down emotionally, instead using intellect to rationalize the world, all to protect himself from his emotions. He can’t see what he can’t see. Each baby step is scary and causes him to feel an emotion. I bet a lot of what he may be feeling is anger, not at you per se, but anger at having to feel those mushy emotions, anger at having to go through this whole ordeal instead of just leading a peaceful, unemotional life. But as I recall, it was he would came on this board complaining of that unemotional, sexless life. So know he is tuck and doesn’t know where to go. He has painted himself into a corner. He asked for sex, now he’s got it. He just didn’t count on all the other “stuff” that comes with it.
And I feel uncomfortable doing it, but I do it. I do feel differently about sex now. I think about it more often and desire it more often than I used to, in spite of not feeling particularly loved in my LL.
I think this is a huge step for you. It is a long way from where you were not long ago. Change is uncomfortable. Just stick with it. Once Chuck can give you some validation, it suddenly won’t seem so uncomfortable anymore. So Chuck, are you listening?
When am I going to get there? I don't know. Because I feel like I'm doing most or all of the "work," I'm feeling a bit like the mother instead of the wife or partner. There has been very little partnership in fixing our marriage problems, as I see it.
I think that Chuck is well aware of your changes and your growth. Right now that growth is enough to make him uncomfortable, but not enough to panic him that you have grown to the point of not needing to depend on him. When you get to that stage, he might panic and then try to catch up to your growth. If he is as smart as he claims, he will move forward before it gets that far.
I believe that cac still thinks that most of the problems with our R are mine.
Makes sense. He has been locked into victim thinking for a long time.
If this board came with sounds, you'd be hearing that "wrong answer" buzzer right now. I believe I am vulnerable. I believe that I wear my vulnerability on my sleeve, at least with him. I have told cac my fears and my issues and my concerns ad nauseum. Ask him. He doesn't like to hear it. Anything but that. It makes him very uncomfortable.
OK, I hear you. Maybe that is not resonating with him because he has such a hard time empathizing, in turn because he can’t feel. I am sure it makes him uncomfortable. That’s what rattling the cage is supposed to do. Maybe with a little more discomfort he will get up and move to a new position. Who knows if it will be better or worse, but at least it will be change. A smart guy like him should figure out quickly which spots are not the ones to lie down on.
I've written about cac's smoking and how it bothers me.
IMO, he needs to quit smoking, period, but that’s your call.
I don't see this as an option, if he expects sex every time he comes to bed showered. This makes me feel pressured to perform. So he only showers when he thinks we will have sex, which really means missed opportunities for one thing leading to another.
I’m a little confused with what you’re saying. On one had you say you don’t want sex every night, so he apparently doesn’t see the need to shower every night, only those nights when he wants sex, meaning the nights he doesn’t shower gives you a break from sex, right? But then you really do want him to shower every night, but not always want sex, but to cuddle some times. I with you so far….. but then you say his not showering, which could be his way of taking the pressure off of you, is creating missed opportunities for sex. Do I have that right? So which is it, do you want him to always shower to leave open the possibility for sex? But I thought that would put too much pressure on you to perform.
Another confusing thing is how is he to know when you want sex and when you don’t? For him to expect sex every night pressures you too much. But you want him to shower each night anyway. If he does this, which nights is he to initiate and which nights is he to cuddle? If he doesn’t know, then should he just assume cuddling each night, to take the pressure off you, and leave it up to you to decide which nights are for sex? But wouldn’t that mean you have to initiate, and wouldn’t that take away the appearance of desire you want to see in him? Am I correct in getting the impression that you are not sure what you want? That indecision is poison for a victim. Maybe its no wonder he prefers to just go back into his cave.
Another issue is leaving sex for the last thing at night.
I think this is avoidance on his part. It is something he needs to work on and desensitize himself to the discomfort of initiating and being assertive. I think Chuck needs to see the inconsistency of his anger and sometimes aggressiveness when he is confronted with his issues and he feels the need to defend himself like a man, and the timidity he displays when he tries to avoid responsibility for initiating sex. The two actions are at odds with one another.
I think that not allowing yourself to be vulnerable could be trigger CAC's abandonment issues (just a guess).
Can you explain this?
One of the biggest tasks in recovery is identifying and understanding the dynamic you two are locked in. You push his buttons and he pushes yours. You compliment each other in this way. My comment was a guess on my part that as the victim, Chuck is quick to go into self pity mode and pull back into his shell. That is a defensive tactic to protect himself against something. I think victims generally want to be rescued, which means they feel abandoned.
To not feel this, they need some kind of connection. Chuck has blocked his emotions and so does not want to reach out (and even claims he does not know how, though I think he really does). Hearing your vulnerability, your pain, knowing you are chasing him, gives him this connection. It empowers him in a way he cannot or will not do himself. When you fail to do this, he feels abandoned again.
I think part of your frustration is in always chasing. That is in part a boundary issue and a FOO issue for you. Perhaps a little less chase might help? At one time he seemed to be the on doing the chasing.
Chuck, what you need to understand is that if you want your wife to chase you, then you are a fool to run away when she does. And when you want someone to rescue you, you need to have enough self esteem and confidence to accept the hand of someone reaching out to do so, rather than despise the person because of the implication that you are weak and need to be rescued in the first place. But it is you that created this catch 22, not the person trying to help you. This is where I think you need to grow up and ask yourself if you really know what it is that you want?
It's interesting that you used the words "gone to the trouble." "Gone to the trouble," and "taken the effort" are not words that go over well with some HD folks.
They do not go over well with anyone if it is obvious it is an effort or a chore to speak the other person's LL. If it is done with bad grace and a certain amount of grousing or unwillingness.
Cemar feels this from his W, that she really finds it a chore to make the effort to have sex with him. I feel my H finds it a chore to make the effort to sit and shoot the breeze with me. (In fact he very rarely if ever does and almost always quickly turns the subject round to whatever he needs to talk about. I know this is true and not just my pov because I have spent time standing back from our conversations and "watching" them. Keeping my good humour up and just from time to time dropping in new topics, it takes about two sentences for him to go back to grumbling about the day he's had at work.)
If you are getting the sense "I am not enjoying this" from anyone in regard to your LL you will not feel loved. In fact you will probably feel slapped in the face.
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
Here's an example. I've written about cac's smoking and how it bothers me. He will shower at night sometimes, but it usually is with the expectation that we will have sex.
Is he expecting sex, hoping for sex, or leaving the door open for sex? Are you sure you can tell the difference?
Originally Posted By: mrs.cac4
(I drew a boundary and told him that I wouldn't have sex unless he was showered.) I'm not interested (at least right now) in having sex every night. However, I'd love to be able to cuddle etc. during those "off" nights, with him showered of course. I don't see this as an option, if he expects sex every time he comes to bed showered. This makes me feel pressured to perform.
Which, like Cobra mentioned, discourages him from doing things that make you feel pressured to perform, which leads to...
Originally Posted By: mrs.cac4
So he only showers when he thinks we will have sex, which really means missed opportunities for one thing leading to another.
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
Cemar feels this from his W, that she really finds it a chore to make the effort to have sex with him. I feel my H finds it a chore to make the effort to sit and shoot the breeze with me. (In fact he very rarely if ever does and almost always quickly turns the subject round to whatever he needs to talk about. I know this is true and not just my pov because I have spent time standing back from our conversations and "watching" them. Keeping my good humour up and just from time to time dropping in new topics, it takes about two sentences for him to go back to grumbling about the day he's had at work.)
Oh no! I thought he was really coming around. Is this a setback or is he really back in his shell to stay?
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
Cobra, I appreciate you taking the time to respond, however, I think some of your responses are very harsh. I actually logged on just now to see if I could delete the thread. Yep. Because now this stuff is out there. Now I have to deal with the fallout. Why did I start this thread you might wonder? Because desperate people do desperate things I guess.
Have you seen kettricken's post this morning on HD's thread? She writes about empathy and her #3 about fused empathy is totally me. I can't stand the fact that cac might feel hurt by some of this, and I actually feel responsible for what you wrote. If I hadn't started the thread, he wouldn't have to read this stuff. I guess I did it because I've changed, but it scares the crap out of me.
A couple months ago I asked cac to go to MC with me and he agreed. I haven't had any luck finding one that has openings to fit our schedule, so it's been shelved for the moment. But honestly, the thought of going scares me too because I will have to deal with all the stuff that comes up. I guess I have a big tendency to avoid things too, huh?
I agree there. But this does not mean using another LL as a substitute for your own. So what this means is that speaking the wrong LL to your spouse STILL gets you 0 points in the love bank.
Sorry if I was too direct, but honestly, I did not say anything a good counselor would not say. It might take a little more time for him/her to get a handle on the situation, but the facts are the facts.
Furthermore, there is nothing I could have said that would have any impact at all on Chuck had he been taking care of his side of the marriage. He has no reason to be upset with you or me or anyone else. If criticism of his actions bothers him, then the best thing for him to do is disarm those critics by eliminating the fuel for that criticism. Only he can do that. If he reacts in a negative way, he will fuel more criticism. That is human nature. He is exactly the same way. He has been on this board criticizing you. You changed so he has less ammo to throw at he. He hasn't changed so he is still susceptible. Which path will he take? I know which one EVERYONE on this board is rooting for.
Chuck, sorry if I was too harsh, but I would love to see you take charge of your marriage and turn it around. The very fact that your wife would come on here and try to retract her statements and exhibit fear of your anger says a lot. Is this what you wanted when you first started posting?
I replied to Lil that there are three options to troubled marriages - 1) put up with less sex, intimacy, validation, etc, 2) rattle the cage enough to bring about change and repair the marriage, 3) leave. Which option are each of you choosing?
