Tucson, or bust?

[Martelo]

HD I think in that dialogue that was clipped you can see the guy really trying to work it out and it's a bit clunky but he is trying. Being direct about your wants and trying to handle the possible negative response in a non passive aggressive way is a huge part of dealing with things. Thats where I think " it's your loss " comes into play as a method of framing the rejection it doesn't have to be a reverse psychology technique but as a way to put it in context and to insulate yourself from the response. But do you really believe it?

If you offered her a bowl of ice cream and she said "no thank" you say "your loss" and finish off the bowl of ice cream quite happily. I would believe that in that situation that you would feel it was her loss, allot harder to do with sex involved.

Unplugging the emotional hose is tough but I know that you'll do great.

[sat567]

Unplugging the emotional hose is tough but I know that you'll do great.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, buddy. I keep telling myself that there are lessons I must learn from all this. I just wish they weren't so hard to take, so painful, etc.

Hairdog

[fearless]

Hdog, I have some questions about the Nice Guy (NG) book. For me, I have developed (through FOO and my own personality) my own philosophy in which I TRY to treat people according to MY ethics and 1) not according to whether they "deserve" or "earn" it or 2)not whether they will react in a way that I want. I do what I want and they are free to do what they want.

I bring this up because I know the NG book addresses #2. From what I can tell it tries to show you that by doing things in order to get unspoken and/or self interests met, you are setting yourself up for disappointment along with creating passive aggressive relationships, right?

Then you have exercises to try to help you develop a way to meet your needs without these unspoken agreements. Does he also discuss philosophy to developing an attitude which enables you to help others without throwing expectations upon them?

Does it also address looking at your actions from the POV that your actions are about YOU? For me, I try to treat people based upon who I am and not according to who they are. In other words I do things because I want to do them and I believe I should do them. I do this so I can look at myself in the mirror and feel good about myself. The other person may or may not know this or recognize my extra effort which is okay with me. They might just be busy or distracted and it's not really a "slight" to me. (Although I do have this peculiar issue with wanting to be waved at when I let people in in traffic. Why is it so important for me to get that little wave? See I have lots of my own work to do!!!)

Just curious about your thoughts since you are reading the book.

I've noticed quite a few comments from others pointing out all your wife's faults and mistakes which kind of look like "reasons" why you shouldn't care about her feelings. For some reason it makes me cringe because it sounds like her feelings might be more acceptable IF she would make love to you and had not made her own mistakes along the way.

The problem is that blaming viewpoint gets you both stuck because as you can tell she has a list of all your mistakes just like you have of all of her mistakes. And by now who can really say which mistakes are worse or which list is longer. (Well okay of course her mistakes are worse and more numerous ) At some point at least one of you and hopefully in the end BOTH of you can throw those lists away and start fresh.

I would just suggest not treating her as if A)she owes you OR B) she has been a crappy wife so she "deserves" your disrespect.

I am NOT saying that you ever have disrespected her. Just warning to be aware of that as you fight the NG syndrome.

[OG_Lou]

Cobra The “your loss” technique does not work with my wife either. A person needs to feel s/he deserves something before s/he feels the loss of it. That is one of my wife’s problems. She complains of not getting enough validation, but when she does get it she sabotages it.
About the same here cobra.

HD, I felt the guys post was a bit idealistic, according to the book and not according to what usually happens in my life. I posted it anyway because he said he made the effort, something I see some guys not doing.

From NG book and related to HD's reply.
Helps break addictive patterns by eliminating compulsive masturbation,
HD, the word compulsive MB is there. What is wrong with MB a couple times a week? I think of compulsive as 1X to 3X or more a day. Getting off os as good or better than taking a sleeping pill. BTDT at 2AM many times after laying in bed for a couple of hours and still trying to get some good shut eye. ZZZZZZZZZZZ

Lou

[haphazard]

Hairdog,

I keep telling myself that there are lessons I must learn from all this. I just wish they weren't so hard to take, so painful, etc.

Therein lies your problem. From your description of yourself as a kid you are obviously an inherent pain avoider. Many a youngest child grows up far wilder than you did precisely because they use seeing what the eldest did or didn't get away with to actually define the outer boundaries they must try to breach. You did the opposite. This is just you, it is your personality and it is what you were born with not your foo.

If you had a kid that was weak at math you would get him a tutor to help him out (or tutor him yourself). You are the kid that is weak at dealing with emotional pain. You need to keep on exercising that muscle until it can start to take some of the strain. Emotional pain has to be faced and it has to be dealt with head on. Accept yourself Hairy, you are who you are and there is nothing wrong with that. But tutor yourself in your weak areas.

Also read Martelo's post on Lord Grenville's thread.

hugs.

Fran

[sat567]

Hey Lou, I wish I had the quick answers for you, but I'm definitely still in the process of reading it.

From what I can tell it tries to show you that by doing things in order to get unspoken and/or self interests met, you are setting yourself up for disappointment along with creating passive aggressive relationships, right?

This is the "covert contract." You want BB to have (and enjoy) sex with you. She complains about the mess in the garage, which is filled with your junk (her view) your inventory (your view). The sex and the printers are, in no way, related to each other, at least as far as BB is concerned. You may feel differently about this - maybe you had been thinking about sex with her, and had a look in your eye, and she happened to mention that she was bothered by the junk. CLANK. That's the sound of a connection being made in your head between the two. Here's what's going on in your head (but only if you're the same type of NG as me: "Wow...if I get those printers cleared out, she will see my efforts and reward me with sex. Hmmm, I don't need to say this out loud to her because, surely that is why she brought up the issue of the clutter. No doubt in my mind that she wants to reward me. Don't want to mention any of this to her, because she does hate to talk about this kind of thing." So you clean up the mess and mention it to her. And wait. And wait. "Hey...WTF? There's my quid; now where is my pro quo?" When you don't get the results you thought you were supposed to get, the results SHE AGREED TO (except she didn't because she just happened to be in a complainin' mood that day and saw the junk and blurted it out and sex with you wasn't even on her mind that day), THEN is when the PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE BEHAVIOR starts, such as not doing things she asks you to do (why bother?) or being late, or being rude, or forgetting to give the dog its pill (it's HER dog), etc. So, it's not a "passive aggressive relationship", but rather, passive aggressive behavior you pull off because, well, she didn't follow through on our contract, and I want to "even it up" a bit after putting all that effort into making her happy.

Yeah...it sounds totally sick. I don't know if you do it, but I have done it many times. Sometimes she calls me on it (the PA behavior) and I counter with the "lack of sex" and she doesn't make the connection (neither did I until I read the book), and, instead says, "Hey, we're talking about MY issues right now, and MY issue is about how you're being really PA to me."

Does he also discuss philosophy to developing an attitude which enables you to help others without throwing expectations upon them?

I know that he does differentiate between caretaking, and caring. Caretaking is doing something nice for someone with the expectation/hope/hidden agenda of being rewarded for your efforts. Caring is doing someone nice for someone without any expectations at all.

I would just suggest not treating her as if A)she owes you OR B) she has been a crappy wife so she "deserves" your disrespect.

Yes, my friend. This is key. I was just telling my IC today how I get stuck in that rut and how, when I think about the good things my wife means to me, I have a lot to be thankful for.

One thing I talked about with my IC was the fact that "you are selfish" is a big HOT BUTTON for me. The funny thing was, my ex knows this, too. Yet, when she accuses me of being selfish (not buying my sons cars, etc.,), the first one to jump to my defense has always been Ms.Hdog. (Not that she defends me to my ex, just that she tells me I am NOT selfish) She focuses on the fact that my ex buys everything for my older kids and that I am the only one of the parents who is trying to teach them about being careful with money, about earning money, about having a sense of ownership after buying something with money they have earned, etc.

There was a time, between wives, when I lived in a simple little house, drove my dad's old car, and spent whatever money I had on my kids. I even spent money I didn't have, and ended up with some debt. Then, I met current W, and after a while, she showed me that I needed to stop, and that I needed to be saving for college, etc. She urged me to balance out my ex's excessive spending on the kids to try to teach them the lessons set forth above. Thank you, Ms.Hdog, for setting me straight, for taking control of our finances, and for getting us back into fiscal health.

But...wait a sec. Now you call me selfish? Now you want me to spend the small amount of money I have earned from my second job on my kids, who, by the way, refuse to bother working any jobs at all? What lessons would I teach them then? Why the inconsistency?

A light went on during the session that hadn't gone on before (in spite of a couple of you mentioning it). This is not about the money. It's about the ol' "when one partner changes, the relationship changes." It's about me exercising some financial independence, and some behavioral independence. It's shaking the cage. It's an effort to change the dynamics of enmeshment, or differentiation, or an attempt to get rid of some of the dysfunction. I'm sure it's threatening as hell for her.

We got here through a series of choices and compromises, some spoken, some not. It's going to be a long road to anything resembling "healthy" and "mutually enjoyable."

It feels like I'm headed in the right direction, but I'm not sure she'd agree with me. But I guess she doesn't have to agree with me for me to believe that I'm doing the right thing. (Such a hard concept for me to embrace).

I have to get going. See y'all tomorrow.

Hairdog

[Cobra]

Wow HD, you're really starting to see the light. Great post!!! Also, once you do start to see that which you couldn't see before, the relationship starts to move along faster, not slower. The slow part is getting to the point where you develop this new vision. That step can take years. Look at CeMar. He's still working at it.

[Martelo]

Hey Lou it's not so much the MB it's the using MB or fantasy as a way to escape dealing with underlying feelings, I think that the element that makes it compulsive not the frequency. Dr. Glover recommends " healthy masturbation " that I interpret as taking things into your own hands while being fully present in the moment and not distracting yourself with porn or fantasy but instead focusing on yourself and treating yourself well.

[Heywyre]

Martelo - our ST told us "healthy masturbation" was 3-5 times/week for males and 1-3 for women. Erotica (he doesn't like to call it porn) was okay as an "additional", as long as it wasn't used as a substitute for the real thing

[Martelo]

Heywire Dr.Glover is talking about healthy MB a bit differently than a ST would allot of NiceGuys use it as an escape from uncomfortable emotions. I'll use myself as an example I never wanted to confront my own feeling of loneliness and would instead just feel like MB to sooth myself. I didn't even know that I was avoiding the unpleasant emotion it was such a habitual thing to do when ever I was confronted with a situation where I may feel lonely. I had been doing it since I was a teen not to feel good in a healthy way but to deal with my own uncomfortable emotions.