MC, I randomly called up your posts just now and saw that you just posted this. (Maybe Synchonicity at work?!)
My thoughts:
1. This was a huge 180 for you, maybe against the LRT concept of R talks, but HUGE and I think positive in the long run. Especially that you told her that you have been working with C on your unaddressed feelings about your dad.
2. I think your C is right that you and your W need to sort out your individual issues before you can work on your R.
3. If she was so certain that it was over, she would not be looking for a "spark". Follow some of Theo's advice (and Deida's) and experiment around to create a spark.
4. This is obviously probably something that you need to discuss with your C.
Me 41 W 41 Kids: S9 S7 Married 16 years Bomb dropped 2/2/07 Still living together! current thread
MC, sorry to hear that you have a tough night. I see two parts in this R talk. The bad part. She is still thinking there is no spark. She saw the attorney, instead of thinking of seeing C. Seems like leaning towards D. The good part. She IS looking for a spark. This means she is trying (in her own way) to see if this can work. She wants to know YOUR feelings. If she is totally DONE, she wouldn't care less about how YOU feel. From my point of view, it is actually good that you cried and told her about your dad. It means to her that you are opening up. Would she let you know what else she wants in terms of R, may be in another R talk with her (that hopefully she inititates?) It may be a good chance to see what it is that she wants. Keep in mind, though, at this point, she may want everything that you cannot possibly provide and even if you do, she won't like it. But this is still like dating. In dating time, your girlfriend would like the moon and you would try to get that to her. That's what makes her "special". I don't know if this is good interpretation of her action. She may just had a bad day and used the "dad" issue to vent her frustration. Or she may have thought about this long and hard and the "dad" issue is one of the many issues she is not happy about. (again keep in mind that right now, she wants EVERYTHING and stil, not much is good about you). I don't know if this is good advice. But i sense that while she dropped the bomb, you got one piece of data to think about. Why did she say there is no "spark"? From what you posted, you are doing GREAT in terms of relating to her. Is there a different love language that you are not addressing? like may be sharing your feelings? (which most men don't, I realize that now). The fact that she called you afterwards is good. She still cares, even if just from a friend's standpoint. And a friend can grow into a lover. (unfortunately for most of us here to know that FRIEND can become LOVER, but that is a fact).
M 38, H 38, two sons Met 20 years ago Married 13 years Bomb: Oct, 2006 DB: Started in Dec, 2006 H moved out for 3 weeks in Mar, 2007 H back home and piecing?
Maybe changing up your game might create that spark.
Most important, that spark needs to be, what SuperDad calls the path of the heart. It has to do with finding yourself, not playing games with her head.
You are trying very hard to court her: dates, etc. You are a nice guy. Well maybe it's working, maybe it't not. Perhaps add some different things to your arsenal.
Some thoughts:
1. Maybe more "drive-by" flirting.
2. Find something YOU are passionate about for you. Some hobby, interest, cause, that gets your blood flowing. Not just fun activities, but intense activities that challenge you to operate at your edge. Rock-Climbing, mountain climbing. How about a 7-10 day course with American Alpine Ascents? Just you, maybe your 15 year old. Go to the North Cascades and learn how to Climb. Or start Rock climbing. There are tons of areas all over the country. It can become a weekend passion for you.
Again, I suggest Karate a lot: it's an ancient warrior discipline that can really engage your mind/body/spirit. Maybe you want to delve into the study of theology. Maybe you want to give you time to Habitat for Humanity. I'm talking about something transcendent, highly engaging and, perhaps, a little addictive. A drug for the soul.
One of the Fathers of modern Karate felt that a true Karate practicitioner had an OPEN heart. Anyone could read it: this man is true and righteous, he bears no malice to anyone. He is clear, strong and confident. A man you could trust. But beware, it's a lion's heart. Attack him, and he'll stop you dead in your tracks. The goal of Karate, according to another master, was to polish your character.
3. Grieve your father. Buy flowers and go visit his grave alone. Talk to him. Tell him how much you miss him. Tell him how much you wish you had known him more. Kneel in front of the grave. Next time take a friend with you that you feel comfortable crying around. I'd be there if I could. You know I could.
4. Maybe find a C that can help you "find the authentic self". That's psycho-jargon to help you clear out the junk and be true and authentic.
5. There needs to be in your mind (and mine) a willingness to not bet the whole farm on our marriages succeeding. Now I'm getting theological. Our marriage can become an idol. Painful as it is, losing that idol may be necessary for us to find our true, purer and more authentic self. Man I hate saying that.
Painful as it is, losing that idol may be necessary for us to find our true, purer and more authentic self.
Theo--you're hitting it on the head here. As long as your focus is on your W, your M, trying to figure out what every little conversation/interaction means, you are treading water at best.
MC--Hon, she doesn't feel a spark because you're safe. She's not worried about losing you. You are doing a bang-up job of being the perfect guy, and the perfect guy won't break her heart.
MC, I had a coworker tell me that she and H were divorced for a couple of years. She said it wasn't until that she just gave up and went on with her life that he started coming around. I'm not suggesting that you be rude, but start doing things for yourself and don't concentrate on her.
Life's challenges are not supposed to paralyze you, they're supposed to help you discover who you are. -- Bernice Johnson Reagon
MC--Hon, she doesn't feel a spark because you're safe. She's not worried about losing you. You are doing a bang-up job of being the perfect guy, and the perfect guy won't break her heart.
This above quote is inspired.
Perfect guys, gentlemen, nice guys -- we're boring, we're safe, get taken for granted and, of course, we don't break people's hearts. We'll always be there for our wife and kids.
Late at night, before we go to bed, we check in on our kids. We watch them sleep. We observe their breathing. We stroke their hair. We place our hand on their cheeks. We bend over and kiss them on their heads. Perhaps we whisper a prayer for them. We get choked up. We want them to live in innocence and joy. We don't want them to live in a broken home. Images of broken little hearts and shattered dreams flood into minds. And -- gosh darn it -- our love and conscience kicks in and we re-double our resolve to keep the family together. We then send a vibe to our wives that we'll always be there and that we won't break anyone's heart.
That vibe might be the death of us.
The OM on the other hand is dangerous -- it's an illicit affair for goodness sake. He might not always be there. He's got other women to seduce and other homes to wreck. The spark is there. It's attractive. There's no neediness on his part. There is nothing to lose. He's fearless. He's like a terrorist, an assasin, a "freedom fighter" who will happily sacrifice YOUR children for HIS passion.
I don't know, but I sure can use some of that black-ooze that gave Spiderman increased aggression and confidence. It made him dangerous. I'm tired of being safe.
He's like a terrorist, an assasin, a "freedom fighter" who will happily sacrifice YOUR children for HIS passion.
I don't know, but I sure can use some of that black-ooze that gave Spiderman increased aggression and confidence. It made him dangerous. I'm tired of being safe.
Wow, Theoden powerful stuff!
OK, maybe this is just rambling, but I think that at some point, the bold "dangerous" move for us LBH's may be to save our families by filing for divorce from our WAW's.
By this I mean, documenting the behaviour of our WAW's, hiring the best L money can buy and going for full custody, limited contact for WAW with kids, and all financial resources of the M remaining with the kids (and us), including child support from ex-W.
I know that I would want to explore all other options before I get to this, but it would definitely shock the Hell out of the WAW and change the perspective of us as "safe". I can see 3 possible outcomes:
1. WAW is really this person she has become. Nasty legal battle, lost by LBH, lots of $ down the drain that would have been available to kids otherwise.
2. WAW is really this person she has become. Nasty legal battle, won by LBH, lots of $ down the drain that would have been available to kids otherwise.
3. WAW is shocked out of her dream world and decides to recommit to the M/family. (Don't know where this goes.)
Outcome 1. would be awful. Outcome 2. not so great either since WAW is not available for kids the way she needs to be. Outcome 3. could be great or maybe not either.
In any case, definitely a 180 which would send a clear message about how "safe" we really are.
Wonder what Frank/Amy might have to say about this, extreme version of the "After the LRT".
SD
Me 41 W 41 Kids: S9 S7 Married 16 years Bomb dropped 2/2/07 Still living together! current thread
OK, maybe this is just rambling, but I think that at some point, the bold "dangerous" move for us LBH's may be to save our families by filing for divorce from our WAW's.
By this I mean, documenting the behaviour of our WAW's, hiring the best L money can buy and going for full custody, limited contact for WAW with kids, and all financial resources of the M remaining with the kids (and us), including child support from ex-W
I think your first paragraph might be right. It shows that we are moving on with our lives, with or without our spouses. It shows strength -- and unwillingness to be dis-respected and a clear sense of our personal boundaries. It tells them we will not be there with them forever, IF they choose to continue in their crazy-making mode.
Paragraph #2 seems attractive provided you can prove the WAS is an unfit parent and you happen to have massive amounts of money. Because the court and lawyer fees will bleed you. In most cases, adultery has no bearing on custody or division of marital assets. Even if the WAS is "unfit" it's hard to prove unless there is drug use or clear negligence. And in many cases, that kind of case forces a highly litigious blood-bath and the children might need to tesitify. You end up destroying what you were trying to save.
Better to firmly, but gently move your spouse towards financial indepedence --which shows you are not accepting the status quo. That shows your detachment. And shoot for joint custody with 50-50 time with kids. You each have your lawyer and you use a mediator to hammer our the agreement.
This is what Frank did. He looked at the situation and said, "We can't afford separate households right now. So let me help you get your business off the ground so you can move towards contributing 50% of household expenses. Then you'll be in a place where you can move out. This way we'll both avoid living in nasty cramped housing. If you really want your space, move into the spare bedroom and put a lock on your bedroom door." Or something like that. Then Frank proceeded to GAL in a serious way. This gave his wife a taste of his unavailabilty and his seriousness in moving on. He started doing fun things with the kids without his wife.
Of course I'm summarizing Frank's story.
I think we can send a message about our "not being safe and always available" by moving them towards a divorce in a way that minimizes the bloodbath, and helps them get on their feet. A benevolent strength. More a samurai than a ninja. More Thor than Loki. More Christ than Judas. More the SWAT team capitan than the terrorist.
We still need to protect the kids while we fight for them.
