It's going to be a bumpy ride

[NikB]

While your H was moved out- were there any boundaries you set and shifted? If so, what were they and what do you wish you had done differently? What do you think precipated your H's return? And how do you differentiate between being loyal and a doormat?

Well... I didn't quite understand boundaries. Still really struggling with it, actually. But just some examples of things I wish I'd done differently:

- Insisted more on H calling me in advance when he came over. He usually called - but sometimes when he was all of 10 minutes away. I was usually so glad to see him I didn't really push it.

- Hung around the house too much, just because he was here. He's really into racing/cars and all his tools and stuff were here, so we had a deal that the garage was basically "his" even during the sep. But I'd sometimes change my plans just to be around when he was here... not healthy.

- Should not have had sex with him after he moved out.. or at least not until he started kinda coming around and pursuing me again. Maybe flirted, hinted, but I shouldn't have continued with it as if nothing was wrong.

- He stayed here a lot of nights - and I made that very easy. He'd be working in the garage, it'd get late, I'd say "Hey you can just stay here if you want." It sent the message that I was always here, that even if he was off having his "single life" most of the time, he could always come home.

What it all really added up to was two problems:

1. Not making the sep hard enough. We lived apart but I wouldn't say we ever really truly separated. Is that good or bad?

2. Further loss of self-respect on my part - and likely, H losing respect for me. Bad enough I never pushed him on the "friend" issue early on, but now I'm willing to sleep with him, go out with him, cook him dinner sometimes, etc. when he's not even committed to me?? (yuck)

Doormat to me is basically when you're acting in a way that is not respectful and loving towards yourself. Including allowing your H to get away with that. You can be nice, friendly, but detached, and still keep your self respect intact. Make him "win" you back if that's what he decides he wants. Loyal is different - it's that deep down love that you have and keep with you, but WITHOUT letting yourself be hurt further or treated badly.

I hope I'm making some kinda sense.. it's a confusing thing, I know.

[Trixi]

lol about the tough veneer. really? me? or maybe I just come across online as tougher/stronger than I am. who knows.

as for the kiss on the cheek, H pulled that on me and I told him never, ever to do it again. I wasn't his aunt (insert choice swear word prior to, "aunt") and wouldn't be treated as such. lol.

Now, see! That is what I mean about the tough veneer. *I* stood there with my lower lip quivering and tears welling up. great.

That was my big mistake all along though - being too available. I did great with GAL, getting out, doing things, but he never really felt he might lose me (or so he says now - I do actually recall him worrying quite a bit a few times, but it just wasn't enough).

I am absolutely positive that my H is confident that I will be waiting. I have been waiting (in a sense)for years; why would this be any different? Of course, he also knows that I value the sanctity of marriage and that since this is my first marriage, I *especially* want it to work out. He has said that he knows I won't wait forever, but I think deep down he thinks I will.

What would you have done differently to make him realize that it was possible to lose you? Does he agree that you made yourself too available?
(this is good stuff, btw- thanks!)

Edited to add:
I just saw that you posted a big post while I was typing mine. If you addressed my questions in your post, just ignore these ones. Unless you feel compelled to elaborate.... Ok- now I am going to go read your post.

[SallyM]

lol about the tough veneer. really? me? or maybe I just come across online as tougher/stronger than I am. who knows.

as for the kiss on the cheek, H pulled that on me and I told him never, ever to do it again. I wasn't his aunt (insert choice swear word prior to, "aunt") and wouldn't be treated as such. lol.

Now, see! That is what I mean about the tough veneer. *I* stood there with my lower lip quivering and tears welling up. great.

oh, I've done plenty of lip quivering/crying in my time, too. but for some reason that just pissed me off. next time, channel me and tell him to save that crap for his aunt. lol.

[Trixi]

While your H was moved out- were there any boundaries you set and shifted? If so, what were they and what do you wish you had done differently? What do you think precipated your H's return? And how do you differentiate between being loyal and a doormat?

Well... I didn't quite understand boundaries. Still really struggling with it, actually. But just some examples of things I wish I'd done differently:

- Insisted more on H calling me in advance when he came over. He usually called - but sometimes when he was all of 10 minutes away. I was usually so glad to see him I didn't really push it.

What sort of time requirement would have put in place?

- Hung around the house too much, just because he was here. He's really into racing/cars and all his tools and stuff were here, so we had a deal that the garage was basically "his" even during the sep. But I'd sometimes change my plans just to be around when he was here... not healthy.

Heh- I probably will have to trump up plans to not be here. Since both my businesses are run out of my house. This is great! Your handy hints are really helping me prepare for things that if they just "happened" I would probably mess up.

- Should not have had sex with him after he moved out.. or at least not until he started kinda coming around and pursuing me again. Maybe flirted, hinted, but I shouldn't have continued with it as if nothing was wrong.

This is exactly what I need to hear. I can so totally see me falling into this. All his stuff is going to be here at the garage, plus A LOT of his personal stuff since he is going to be moving back here regardless of whether or not we get back together. It would be very easy for him to "need" something and then me hang around.

I can also see him conning me into having sex with him. He would probably be "needy" and affectionate...In retrospect, how far would you allow "affection" to go? Was it crystal clear to you when he was actually persuing you? (As opposed to just feeling lonely and trying to get in your pants?)

- He stayed here a lot of nights - and I made that very easy. He'd be working in the garage, it'd get late, I'd say "Hey you can just stay here if you want." It sent the message that I was always here, that even if he was off having his "single life" most of the time, he could always come home.

Yup. If you hadn't offered, do you think he would have asked? If he had asked, what would have been the best way to handle saying 'no'?

What it all really added up to was two problems:

1. Not making the sep hard enough. We lived apart but I wouldn't say we ever really truly separated. Is that good or bad?

2. Further loss of self-respect on my part - and likely, H losing respect for me. Bad enough I never pushed him on the "friend" issue early on,

What do you mean by that? Friends with you? Did he have a special "friend"?

but now I'm willing to sleep with him, go out with him, cook him dinner sometimes, etc. when he's not even committed to me?? (yuck)/quote]

A lot of the DB/DR "wisdom" is that we're supposed to be best friends to our WAS. Do you agree? Do you think you just took your 'friendship' with him too far?

[quote]Doormat to me is basically when you're acting in a way that is not respectful and loving towards yourself. Including allowing your H to get away with that. You can be nice, friendly, but detached, and still keep your self respect intact. Make him "win" you back if that's what he decides he wants. Loyal is different - it's that deep down love that you have and keep with you, but WITHOUT letting yourself be hurt further or treated badly.

I hope I'm making some kinda sense.. it's a confusing thing, I know.

I am so totally loving this- it's like a breath of fresh air; especially since we are similar with regard to shifting boundaries. I imagine that a lot of LBS have this same problem; this is a real blow to our self esteem.

[Trixi]

oh, I've done plenty of lip quivering/crying in my time, too. but for some reason that just pissed me off. next time, channel me and tell him to save that crap for his aunt. lol

<snort>
I'll try!
I have followed your thread (haven't said much because I didn't feel like I had much to offer) and you certainly have spunk; I have enjoyed your writings very much.

[SallyM]

<snort>
I'll try!
I have followed your thread (haven't said much because I didn't feel like I had much to offer) and you certainly have spunk; I have enjoyed your writings very much.

hey, if anything, sounds like it would be a complete 180, right?

okay, enjoyed my writings? wow, you really do have issues, enjoying the ravings of a half-crazed lunatic. lol. okay, just j/k, but somehow the idea of someone enjoying my rantings/pathetic drivels/pleas for help made me laugh.

keep us posted on how you do tonight. I really will be thinking of you. I know how hard it is. trust me, the day h moved out, it was NOT fun.

[NikB]

Agent99 - sorry if some of this is a repeat, figured I'd just go through your questions.

What would I have done differently? Gone darker, I think. I never went all that long without talking to him. Also being more mysterious about what I was doing. I was a pretty open book. It wasn't really "equal" to what he was doing. 90% of the time I had no idea where he was or what he was doing - and yet when he came over and we got talking, I'd tell him every detail practically. And he was interested, so that was ok - but it just made it feel less "real" as a separation I think.

Yes, he totally agrees. He's the one who said that - that he knew he could come back any time, and now he kinds of resents ME for not making him work harder to come home. The couple of times he seemed a bit "nervous" were when I took a weekend trip away to visit my bro (and showed him pics later in which I looked very happy and relaxed, he commented on it). And the second time was when I took a girls trip to San Diego with some of the ladies from this board. Taking a vacation? Without him? Driving 11 hours alone, to meet up with people I'd never met in person?? It threw him for a loop, for sure. (and it was SUCH a great trip, too!).

The time requirement... you know, I don't really know. Just long enough that it felt respectful. I never figured out what that would be exactly. I guess whatever you'd expect/want your friends to do. Part of that's just a difference between us too - H is very much a "drop by and visit" person where I feel like I need to call people at least a few hours ahead. So I probably should have asked for that for myself, too. It's really about YOUR comfort level though.

Also a funny thing - the first time he came over and was in the garage he knocked and asked if he could use the bathroom. I told him he didn't need to knock, just come in. I was actually fine with that - but I do wonder if it would have been a more definite "line" to make him knock first. He did come by once without calling and I gently reminded him that he's supposed to call, and he got really upset and down. I think it really hit home what he was doing. I should've done more of that (for both of our sakes).

Ohh definitely make plans not to be home! Don't just fake something though - find something to do, and go do it! And of course, look fantastic when you leave the house. I mentioned it on Morgan's thread so you might have seen it, but try meetup.com.

About the hanging around thing... yeah, that's exactly why I mentioned it is your sitch seems so similar to mine about 7-8 months ago. H never "conned" me really. Sex was one major issue in our marriage - a big 180 just before the bomb was me - uh - taking care of a health issue that was really interfering with our sex life for a LOOONG time, and getting a lot more "into" sex. So it was weird when he moved, I was torn between continuing to show him that I had fixed this problem, vs. losing respect for myself by doing this while he wasn't committed. It was VERY clear when he was pursuing me, though. I think what I should've done was gone as far as I might have on, say, a 2nd date that was going really well. Maybe kisses, starting to go "a little too far" and then, in a flirty way saying something about it being too soon, something like that. Not in a mean way like "Hey you moved out, so forget it buddy!" - but more a date that's pushing things a little too far (but you still really like them, just not ready to go there yet!). Does that make ANY sense??

I'm not sure if he'd have asked to stay if I hadn't offered. Once I offered the first time, he did ask fairly often. It'd get late and he's just say "Soo is it ok if I stay here tonight?" I always said yes. And I don't think that's even all bad - it's a nice reminder of what you two have together! But just make sure it's really, deep down, ok with you. Best way of saying no I think is honestly saying what you feel and need. "I'm not comfortable having you stay here" is all you should need.

On the friend thing - ha, I'm sorry, I forgot that you don't know all 19 of my threads... . Yes, he had a "friend" from work. I tried all last year to be friends with her - she was just rude, degrading towards women, and she throws herself all over men (especially ones who are in a questionable "place" in their M). She's really nasty... "helped" 5 or so men get D'd last year. Nice. Anyway I finally got enough backbone to refuse to be around her myself starting last October/November. But I should have confronted the issue way early on, when I first kind of had a hint something was wrong. At THAT point I think we had a good shot at fixing our issues - but by going along with this "friendship" as I did, it made it easy for H to do so, and it just went too far. I still believe him they never slept together but it's a major EA - and lately, he's sucked back in again.

I totally agree that it's good to be friends with your WAS. Just not the person your WAS is screwing around with. Sorry for the confusion there.

Good luck tonight. I'm going to a BBQ but will try to check in on you later. Stay strong.

[Trixi]

NikkiB- I went thru A LOT of your threads, what a story. I only made it to the part where it's apparent he is back because his socks are in the drawers, clothes in the closet and shoes where they belong.

So, how would you have made him work harder?

[SallyM]

so how did it go last night? did you end up going out, or did you stay home? was thinking about you.

[Trixi]

Last night he finally breezed in at 10:30pm. Grabbed up hampers of clothes/his pillows and other stuff. Was back out the door within 20 minutes.

He was obviously excited. I was obviously not. He told me that he had more stuff he was going to take and that he would come by sometime this week and that he would call before he came over. I said ok. Then he gave me a hug and little kiss on the lips and breezed back out the door. <sniff>

So much of his stuff is still here (stuff I know he will be back to get) that it sorta feels more like he is on an out of town trip. I am clinging on to the hope that he will change his mind. So, everytime I start to really freak out ("OMG. I am all alone. I'll never see him again. He's gone forever") I end up "soothing" myself with the elixir of hope.

I didn't end up going out (I wouldn't have stayed out that late anyway). Last night I thought I had big ideas about all the stuff I would be doing today. And now I am just feeling tired and overwhelmed..and stiffled. I like the security blanket of knowing he will be here soon, but I also hate it. It keeps me frozen in time. Guess I'll just have to break thru that.

Thanks for the thoughts Morgan. I wish you lived closer. Wish NikkiB and mkultra lived closer too.

Oldtimer said something important on one of Nikki's threads. The gist of it was time after time, the LBS makes huge strides in growth-growth that probably wouldn't have happened without the dramatic wake up call. I know this is true for me. The relationship had become very unbalanced. Having said that- there are things he could have done and I am not going to take the "blame" for everything. I am just recognizing that my self esteem needs work.