she has an uncanny ability to focus on the negatives about me, ignore the positives (or just give them lip service) and paint me as some sort of evil, selfish, lazy etc., monster. Of course she does. She has to find a way to blame YOU for her lack desire. No way SHE is going to take the blame for it. So you could be the most perfect guy in the world and she will endlessly search for your FLAWS, because it has to be YOUR fault.
Mojo and Eddie: Mommy issues. I was the fourth child, third son, and, as the baby, lived by relaxed rules. I remember my brothers saying, "I can't believe he gets to drink Coke!" Yeah, life is so unfair.
One of the things that's become apparent to me in the last few years is that I saw how my parents interacted with my older siblings and obviously took careful notes about what got positive results, and what didn't. I was a little angel, I guess. I saw my oldest brother become the "target child" because he didn't toe the line. The only thing he seemed to get kudos for was that he was a pretty smart kid. So I became smart, AND I toed the line.
I have to tell you, though, that most of the line-toeing in our house was for the benefit of positive attention from Dad, not from Mom. He was not a tyrant or anything, he just had these stern looks he would give and you just knew that you had either f@cked up big time, or, sigh, disappointed him. Mom's love and support was always there, but Dad's seemed a bit more "conditional." Good thing I figured out most of the conditions from watching the siblings. And I have to say, because I had figured all that out, he was generally very supportive of me and probably a big reason why I went on to law school after college.
He died the month before I filed for divorce from wife #1, but not before he helped me buy a house for my post-divorce life. (He was the buyer in name only, and I paid rent to him in order to keep the house out of any property settlement.) His support during that time was a big help to me, and a good, positive thing to remember in the very difficult months afterward.
My mom still works everyday and sends me jokes by email (that I've seen too many times) and I've trained her pretty well to check with me before sending out yet another urban myth email. Despite the fact that we live within about an hour of each other (opposite ends of a metropolitan area), I don't see her very often. She's pretty self-sufficient...or maybe she just finds it easier to rely on my brother who lives closer, and has no kids. I talk to her on the phone about once or twice a week, although sometimes more often, sometimes less often.
Oh, and the relationship between Mom and Dad was one of, I guess, quiet loving. Not much PDA, but definitely kisses and hugs hello and goodbye. I don't remember any fights. Certainly nothing like the drama of my marriages.
My little outburst on the phone yesterday happened because I did something I 1)shouldn't have done, and 2) wasn't adequately prepared for: I jumped into the pit with her, stayed too long (shouldn't have done that)and started believing too much of what she was saying about me.
No, you've been believing too much of it all along, and that's why you react so strongly when she says it. If you didn't believe it, you'd react about the same as you would if she started b*tching about the antennae growing on top of your head.
You're ashamed of yourself, and you want more than anything for her not to notice the things you're ashamed of, and when she does notice them, it hurts you deeply. You'll never get away from that, or take that weapon away from her, until you lose the shame, until you accept that you can be flawed and still have the same rights as other people to be happy, to ask for and receive things from other people from time to time, and to have and do things for yourself after your (limited!) obligations are met. Other people are just as flawed as you are, and they are entitled to these things as well.
Originally Posted By: hairdog
Not that there wasn't some truth to what she says, (e.g. financial imperfections, forgetfulness)
So what if you're forgetful? So what if you didn't do the bills right a few years ago? Do financial imperfections and forgetfulness mean you don't deserve anything for yourself? No trips, no concerts, no friends, no sex, no nothing? Sez who?
You, that's who. And you're wrong. If she had screwed up the finances, and you had taken them over and done well with them for a couple of years without interference from her, and she wanted to go on this trip, would you pitch a fit over it? Of course not.
Originally Posted By: hairdog
just that she has an uncanny ability to focus on the negatives about me, ignore the positives (or just give them lip service) and paint me as some sort of evil, selfish, lazy etc., monster.
Of course she has that ability. She's a lawyer. That's what she gets paid to do. Doesn't mean that's the whole picture, as you should know, being a lawyer yourself. She's trained to push one side of the issue as convincingly as she can, and there's supposed to be an opposing counsel pushing the other side so the truth can be discovered. Who's representing you? You're trained for it too... time to step up, even if it's just in your mind.
Originally Posted By: hairdog
Yesterday, she came home in a predictably grouchy mood and, at one point, I asked her to tell me what the "distressing news" was she had mentioned the day before, but which I had forgotten to discuss with her upon my return, later that evening. (I had also asked about this during our phone call yesterday morning). She said, in an annoyed tone, that she didn't feel like talking about it right then.
I said, "Okay, I've asked twice now. If you care to share it with me, go ahead. I'm not going to ask about it again."
Way to go. Keep that up and before you know it, she can run her mouth about your shortcomings all she wants and you'll wait for her point about why it means you should give everything and get nothing... and you'll see clearly that that point never comes. She might as well keep saying "you keep closing your eyes and laying still like a bump on a log for eight hours every single night... why should you get to go anywhere or buy anything or have sex?" You'll react more with confusion and compassion than hurt or anger, because she's really not making her case, and only your confusion lets her win such a crappy case.
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
until you accept that you can be flawed and still have the same rights as other people to be happy
Ahhhh... words to live by. This is very important, hairy.
You have it in your head that you have to EARN the right to have fun, be happy, and even to WANT things. And as Eddie points out, the reason this rings your chimes is because YOU believe it. If you didn't believe it, your W's words would just roll off your back.
"Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"-- he11, the U.S. Constitution gives you the right to go to Tucson!
That's a damn fine post all the way through, Crazy Eddie. But your conclusion is fantastic:
Quote:
She might as well keep saying "you keep closing your eyes and laying still like a bump on a log for eight hours every single night... why should you get to go anywhere or buy anything or have sex?" You'll react more with confusion and compassion than hurt or anger, because she's really not making her case, and only your confusion lets her win such a crappy case.
I like the lawsuit analogy, for these two lawyers. Every lawyer knows this saying: "If the law is on your side, pound the law; if the facts are on your side, pound the facts; if neither are on your side, pound the table." Hairy, you've got the facts and the law on your side (in this case, and your marriage in general). She's beating you with fancy lawyerin' and table pounding.
I appreciate your post, CE. My confusion is often my undoing. Corri (I think) once counseled me long ago to keep asking W to repeat what it was she was saying to me, until I had time to decipher its degree of disconnection from reality. I need to get back on that track.
I think part of the problem is that I am generally so very willing to overlook others' flaws and let them do what they want, that I have trouble comprehending why I don't get the same kind of treatment. The example of W showing me her sheet of paper to prove that whatever purchase she just made came from "her" money is the exception, not the rule. Usually, I see some new box from Talbot's or Pet Warehouse or where ever, and I just leave it for her to open, no questions asked. Because, well, I don't care how she spends her OR OUR money.
Geeze... enough already. I feel like I'm trying to prove what a NG I am, and what a selfish beeyatch she is. You all already know that.
The Golden Rule doesn't always result in anyone doing unto you what you did unto them.
You are willing to overlook others' flaws, but not your own. Having your flaws pointed out to you hurts badly, because you're ashamed of them, so you think that pointing out anyone else's flaws is going to hurt them just as deeply, and you try to avoid doing that and you want them to do the same to you. While other people assume that a certain degree of constructive criticism is part of normal interaction between people that are close to each other, and they get confused and frustrated when you react so strongly to it.
My concentration and recall is still not where I want it to be, and Mrs. Eddie and I would not have a chance in hell of getting along happily if I hadn't become able to hear her point out something that I forgot and say "thank you for reminding me" without being hurt or threatened or angered by it. By getting away from a defensive stance, accepting my flaws, and wholeheartedly welcoming her reminders when I've dropped the ball (without expecting or demanding them, or blaming her when we both forget something), I've extended an invitation to her to work with me as a partner rather than a parent or inquisitor. Now there's no guarantee that Mrs. Hairdog will accept that invitation, but until you can extend it, you'll never be happily intimate with anyone.
Last edited by Crazy Eddie; 08/03/0707:25 PM.
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
Meanwhile, I'm going to wait on the flight tickets, until after further discussion.
Seemed like a big step to me, but the most stressful part was clicking the box on whether to have the tickets held in will call, or mailed to me. I chose mailing, for a couple of reasons. Will call tickets need photo ID and the credit card you used to order them, and if I don't end up going, they'll just go to waste. If they come in the mail and I don't end up going, I can just send them to my buddy.
Plus, this way I have to tell her that I went ahead and ordered the tickets, which is one of those things that I might have tried to hide from her as part of my "don't make waves" NG manipulations.
Well, don't know if I'll be posting this weekend or not, but thanks everyone for your support and differing viewpoints. It means a lot to me.
Hairdog, who is heading out early this orange-ozone-alert Friday.
Hairdog. Here is a clip of another new NG convert.
I was worse in the past, and I really do regret this weakness in me.
In the past, the evening would be like this:
ME: You feel like doing it? W: No, I'm tired. ME: Why are you tired, you don't cook dinner and have time to watch your TV shows. W: You only come to bed early when you want sex. ME: Sex is my emotional needs and I don't feel fulfilled. W: I'm tired; I need to wake up early.
(ME goes silent, turns his back on the bed. Then proceeds to analyze the rejection feeling)
ME: I feel rejected and it's really tiring to have to feel this way. W: It's not you, it's me. I'm tired. ME: A marriage without sex is not a marriage. I want a sex life in my marriage. W: Not everyday. ME: We did not do it yesterday nor I asked for it, it's been X days. (ME marks a * on the calendar when sex happens)
And if sex happens, it happens without that intimacy I seek. It is not fulfilling. And when sex did not happen, I brood on resentment throughout my day at work, and feeds into withdrawal. It was a bad cycle
After reading and applying some NG
I put what I read about the NG into practice.
1. Overcoming Procrastination, and doing Next Action. When I got home, I went through my normal routine, and after dinner I fired up 2 of my computers side by side out of habit. Instead of surfing the web and playing a quick online game, I did something different. Searched for my resume in my hard drives for updates, and also finished my 2nd batch vacation video in Window's Movie Maker. And limiting my projects to 3, I started towards maintaining my paper records and organization. Some de-clutter, junking, shredding and sorting was done.
Time flew, it was past midnight already. Wife was still up going over her mail and watching TV with a laundry load in the dryer. Kids are done with summer vacation.
2. Bedroom. Did my routine, shower, toothbrush, and prepared my clothes for the next day.
3. Assertiveness.
I went to bed and kissed wife and said, ME: I feel like I want to have sex with you tonight. Do you want to have sex? W: No, not really. ME: Ok that's is fine. Your loss though. W: What do you mean my loss? Me: I mean you're missing out on this opportunity. W: What is this about? Me: I told you about this NMMNG book and it says women aren't attracted to Nice Guys. W: (silent) Me: Well, are you attracted to me? W: (avoids answering) I like nice. Me: All I am saying is I'm asserting my needs, and I want to have sex with my wife. W: You always do. Me: Well, I want to have sex with my wife who wants to have sex with me. I'm really ok if you don't feel like having sex with me. It's your loss.
(minutes passed) W: I want a massage (back rub) Me: I hear you say you want a massage. I don't feel like giving massages without getting something in return tonight. W: I guess no more massages anymore then.
(I think she's implying that no more sex. In the past, we agreed that I need to give a massage prior to having sex "most" of the time.)
Me: I like giving you massages, but I do not want to make massages a pre-requisite to sex. Nice guys do that, like me, in hopes to get sex. I don't want that anymore. W: I don't think I like this no more Nice Guy.
Me: There's a difference between me being a *****, from me being more assertive. W: So you want to not be a Nice Guy so you'll be attractive to women? Me: I don't want to be a Nice Guy so that my wife will want to have sex with me. W: And I may not be your wife anymore someday. Me: Who knows what the future is, and you're my wife today and the past 12 years, and my one and only for over 20 years. W: Me too, you're the only one.
Me: I also have to say that I'm sorry for being so weak and needy in the past, about being needy for sex. (I did not feel that heartache, hurt feeling in my chest, when I use to have felt that pain in the past). W: What do you mean? Me: I settled for "bad sex" because I was weak and needy. Nice Guys are that way, and I don't want to be that anymore. W: Bad sex? Me: To me, bad sex is when I kept persisting to ask for sex, even when you say no earlier. And you proceed to go along even when you do not feel or want to have sex with me. I'm sorry to put you through that, I was weak and needy. W: You're the only one I've been with. How can you say it's bad sex. Me: I think it's because I perceive that you don't want it, yet I continue on in hopes of filling my needs. The sex sure was physically releasing, but we were not being intimate. It's devotion sex, or mercy sex, or hurry up sex. Not like quickies where you seem ok to not need an O.
W: I'm just tired a lot. Me: Yes, I hear you are that and I was wrong to not consider it in the past. I also have to apologize about being passive-aggressive. It's bad behavior. W: What do you mean passive-aggressive? What is that? Me: It's my reactions to your rejection. When you say no, I end up behaving in ways that want to hurt you emotionally. Like having resentments, withdrawing, being silent, sighing loudly. W: That's passive-aggressive? Me: Yes those are instead of just being aggressive like slapping or hitting you. (which I don't, just using examples) W: I don't like that. It's still aggressive. Me: I'd like you to call me out when I'm being passive-aggressive. I can live without sex.
It was 1:30 am. W: I'm hungry. (we only had salad for dinner at 8 pm) Me: You can try water. Or have a piece of fruit and drink water. {minutes passed{ W: I'm hungry. Me: A nice guy would probably ask you if you wanted him to cook or fix you something. Good thing I don't want to be a Nice Guy anymore. W: So you want to be a Bad Guy, I can be a Bad Girl. Me: I'm interested on your Bad Girl behavior in bed. (then chuckled)
W got up and drank milk. When she came back to bed, she asked for a massage, but this she wants me to start in an area that gets me horny and ready.
W: J, I want a massage on my lower back and butt. Me: You know touching your ass make me horny. W: Yes, and I'm already naked.
!!!
Finally done and fell asleep 3:15 A.M. and woke up at 5:00 a.m. for work.
Between MarriageBuilders.com, Five Love Languages, Passionate Marriage, MidLifeClub, 4060.org, DivorceBusters.com, OrganizedHome.org, Mismatched Libido, and this new Nice Guy forum, I've learned a lot.
