My XH is an attorney so I certainly know the stresses and issues they have.
Fearless: HAIRDOG IS AN ATTORNEY, TOO.
Hairy, when she said what were you doing downstairs, you should have said, "I was smoking crack with two hookers." If she looks askance at that, admit, "Okay, there was no crack and only one hooker."
One other point. Tell her that you understand she is feeling jealous over you going on this trip and that she might have concerns that you could have fun with your friends that could run into some stray female looking to pick you up. DON’T ask her if she is jealous. She is, but she won’t admit it. Just tell her that you are glad to see this side of her because it tells you that she really does care, but she has nothing to worry about. THAT is being honest and that is something I think she will hear.
I don't think Mrs. HD is jealous. I think she doesn't want HD to have any fun with her or without her.
I had a bf like this once. One day I played hooky from work and went to the beach. I didn't call anyone (except to "call in sick" to work, and just took off.) When I got home that evening (no cell phones in those days) instead of being glad I had fun, he was mopey and pissy because I had fun without him.
I detect a trend where she goes off and spends time DOING THINGS FOR OTHERS
Except the "retreat" was definitely something for herself. While not exactly "fun", it was a Buddhist meditation retreat and she does enjoy that sort of thing.
Hairdog,
Just go. Suggest to her that the next time she is sitting on her zafu, that she meditate on her desire to cling to every shiny penny that you earn.
Don't get into any book keeping argument. She wants to keep score, so let her, as long as she is also tracking the financial value of your Federal civil service retirement package (pension + health insurance).
Do it for you, because it is the right thing for you, because you are a big boy who has earned a little time off on your own to have fun. Ask her to meditate on why she has no sympathetic joy for your impending trip (sympathetic joy is one of the four brahmaviharas).
I think MrsHD is jealous, but she keeps it buried and hidden very well. I'm going this weekend to NJ for reunion of the American school I attended in junior high in Argentina. I asked my wife if she wanted to go and even talked about taking the kids to also visit NYC. But I decided the whole family would be too expensive and us two could just go. She did not want to leave the kids and also said school reunions were "not her thing" (meaning that she never went to a reunion of her inner city high school). So I let it drop.
Then I went to my 30th high school reunion a few weeks ago, but did not bother to ask her to attend since I would be staying at my mom's (with whom my wife can;t get along) and she had already stated that reunions were "not her thing." I hadn't seen many of those people since high school so it was good for me to get in touch with them and I had a good time.
But later I could tell she was acting hurt, but not wanting to ask about the reunion, rather implying that I must have hooked up with an old girlfriend. I told that that my HS girlfriend was a year younger and therefore not at the reunion and my college girlfriend was from a different town. I told her it was ok for her to be jealous, that it meant she cared, and she should not be ashamed to admit such, but she has some idea that admitting to jealousy is a bad thing. She did not argue back the point with me, telling me she knew I was speaking the truth about how she felt, but she would never admit to it.
I think MrsHD plays the same mind tricks on herself.
All this other talk about challenging her control and getting back your balls, etc, is true, but is also a confrontational path that will backfire. It is also not an HONEST path. Just standing up and fighting with her is actually a lie of sorts, because you are not being honest with her about expressing your hurts and your vulnerability. Rather you are lashing back at out because of your hurts. That is the dishonest part.
There's no need to lash out, and there's no need for conflict to get back his balls. Going to Tucson is not a provocative move, as long as he informs her beforehand. She's talking nonsense, and he doesn't need to "fight" her... he just needs to filter out the nonsense and stop believing it so he can get a life without fearing what she has to say about it. Her telling him that he's a lazy, useless screwup that has no business spending $200 on himself should be as likely to provoke conflict as her telling him that the sky is a lovely shade of green today. Just smile and wave.
Originally Posted By: Cobra
One other point. Tell her that you understand she is feeling jealous over you going on this trip and that she might have concerns that you could have fun with your friends that could run into some stray female looking to pick you up. DON’T ask her if she is jealous. She is, but she won’t admit it. Just tell her that you are glad to see this side of her because it tells you that she really does care, but she has nothing to worry about. THAT is being honest and that is something I think she will hear.
Maybe so. If she is jealous and trying to hide it, him pointing it out and honestly sympathizing with her will either get her back arched and her tail poofy, or it'll make her melt. Either way, it'll do something that could turn out to be progress.
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
Since this is a completely optional trip (No friend or family member in need and no family event), I think couples SHOULD make these decisions together.
Why? Because it builds a sense of working TOGETHER and creates and strengthens a BOND with a couple.
By discussing and resolving any complications, ie financial or scheduling snafus that might exist ...
Yep that's exactly how I see it being done. That's why I don't think the conversation is finished on this issue for either of them. There is still time for them to resolve the complications. I don't mean that each one has to be perfectly happy and content with the decision but they should feel like the major issues have been heard and dealt with as best as possible.
Well, that seems reasonable to me. Even couples with a healthy independence need to take the spouse's agenda into account when planning trips, especially when there are children at home. The ideal seems to be, "I'm planning to do thus-and-so on these dates (well in advance), does that work ok with your schedule too? Are there any expenses coming up that I need to consider?" And then discuss.
Not, "I'm going here and spending this; bye." But also definitely not any form of "Mother may I? ....."
At the end of the day, it has to be some form of "These are my plans, let's make them work as well as possible for both of us." Supplication is way way toxic.
If she wants to discuss this at greater length, fine. And I can even understand what you say about expenditure recoil; my husband gets that. But to the extent that these are her emotions talking, as opposed to reason ... he should acknowledge her concerns, but not defer to them. If it's not his truth, he shouldn't live his life by it.
............................................
I don't know her background ... but I can't help but wonder how much of this is driven by her insecurities. This whole scenario reminds me powerfully of a friend of mine whose wife is *extremely* resistant ... "make his life a living hell by emotional outbursts/blackmail/all kinds of low drama" resistant to him going anywhere fun with friends, in town or out of town, without her. Even if she's been invited and doesn't want to go. In her case, it seems to be about fear of abandonment.
My advice: Nothing will prove that you can go have fun with your friends on occasion and still come back to her better than if you find the gumption to weather the emotional storm and go and have fun with your friends and then come back to her. He's done it a few times and the world hasn't ended yet.
"Show me a completely smooth operation and I'll show you someone who's covering mistakes. Real boats rock." -- Frank Herbert
There's no need to lash out, and there's no need for conflict to get back his balls. Going to Tucson is not a provocative move, as long as he informs her beforehand. She's talking nonsense, and he doesn't need to "fight" her... he just needs to filter out the nonsense and stop believing it so he can get a life without fearing what she has to say about it.
I agree with what you say. It makes complete sense for a rational person. But she is not rational or functional, is she? If she were, HD would not be having anywhere near the problems he is having. The point is not whether her action are irrational to us but whether they seem irrational to HER.
Her telling him that he's a lazy, useless screwup that has no business spending $200 on himself should be as likely to provoke conflict as her telling him that the sky is a lovely shade of green today. Just smile and wave.
If she says something like this to HD, then it SHOULD provoke a conflict. If she wants to avoid a conflict she can watch what she says. But she has already made claim to that piece of ground, so she uses this in-your-face honesty as a way to intimidate HD, knowing that he wants to avoid conflicts. Notice that as soon as he did the same (with his comment on going downstairs to MB) she called him on his in-your-face honesty. Double standard. She can use it but he can’t.
I lived my whole marriage with this same standard. I believe that my wife and HD’s wife have a VERY hard time putting themselves in another person’s shoes. They do not realize the jab they give to others with such tactics but they are very sensitive to when it is used on them. This is natural for children raised in a traumatic environment. In fact, it is so natural and predictable you could call it “cookie cutter” (as Nop said once about affairs).
This is why I think it is SOOOOO important for people with spouses like this to fully understand what they are dealing with, not to fix the spouse, but to know how to deal with him/her to get the results you want. With this understanding, the actions of the traumatized spouse start to make sense and you can detach yourself (to some extent) and find a different approach to the situation. This does not mean it ever becomes easy, but it is at least not hopeless. That is what I have been trying to convey here.
The person you describe sounds like she could also fit the "cookie cutter" mold. Everyone has different tactics, some create drama of one level or another, some avoid drama to be the people pleasing martyr, others just fight all the time, but in the end it is all to accomplish the same thing, and that is to remain in their "safe" place, whatever that place may be for each person, to resist the scariness of change, and to protect themselves over all else and often at any cost.
I think she is deathly afraid of losing her control over the marriage and HD. She is completely absorbed by it...and that is a very hard habit to break. She will fight to keep it under any circumstances. She is so afraid to be vulnerable, it is just incredible.
