You said that up until the children were born you did have a PM and yet you called your wife frigid in a diferent post. What is wrong with the term fridgid? If you don't desire sex and avoid it a lot, I would say that person is fridgid.
I don't complain to her about her lack of desire, I am actually TOO nice to her about it. Too much MR. Nice Guy syndrome. I do struggle to find a way to tell her she is basically failing in meeting ANY of my needs, but to do so in a way that will not cause her to give up, but to encourage her to work on it.
But the SL while an important part is not the only reason you love someone. This is where we differ. First, men see sex completely differently from how women see it. I for one CAN NOT separate Desire from Love, but this is normal. Remember, Deida says that men should NEVER be in relationships with women that desire LESS then the man. The mans REWARD in life is to have a women that DESIRES him. So a woman that only can LOVE can not give her man his REWARD in life, and to go without the reward makes life pretty much suck. The reward is incredible, there is NOTHING in life that can equal it or replace it. The reward is what really makes life worth living.
Your bitterness shines out and if even some of this is seen by your wife she must be in a constant state of fear like she felt as a child. I bet you are right. THis is the irony of the situation, she can not fully trust me because I am unhappy and may leave her, just like others have done. But she is the CAUSE of my being unhappy in the marriage. She can not trust me fully because she senses that I may someday leave her because she has no sex drive because she does not trust me.
As for my list, the most important aspect of the list is not what you do, its not how often you do them, its not how you do them, the important aspect is WHY you do them. For example, I would love BJ's. But the intimacy of the BJ comes from WHY she does it. If she does it because she WANTS to do it for herself, that is incredibly intimate. If she does it for me, that is far less valuable, and if I have to ASK for it, that is worth almost nothing, and if she does not want to do it, she will get NEGATIVE love bank points. This is why many relationship experts say that for many SSM's, the return of desire is a REQUIREMENT to saving the marriage.
But beyond all that, the game plan is that we both have to change. I have lots of things to blindly stab at, plenty of info there. So what do the LD people do to change their desire? And yes, their ONLY focus is to be on desire. As my pastor once said in a sermon, the wifes duty in marriage is basically desire and admiration, and this includes desiring when the husband is not desireable (mainly because we are all imperfect humans).
What is the solution? I have no freaking clue. I have asked on here before, apparently most people don't know.
Really?? because it seems like most of us keep telling you the same things and you keep ignoring us.
1) You need to figure out her love language and SPEAK IT regularly 2) You must figure out your purpose in life and begin living that purpose
Is that direct and succinct enough for you??
Deida even says that us guys should never stay with a women whose desire is lower than our own.
Don't even bother quoting little self-serving Deida snippets if you haven't read his book and have not achieved Deida's main points. I have not completely read it but I was unable to find what you just wrote. As I peruse the book, here are some direct quotes:
Page 27 "Your purpose must come before your relationship. Every man knows that his highest purpose cannot be reduced to any particular relationship. If a man prioritizes his relationship over his highest purpose, he weakens himself, dis-serves the universe and cheats his woman of an authentic man..." Are you an authentic man Cemar?
Page 51 "Stop hoping for your woman to get easier. A woman often seems to test her man's capacity to remain unperturbed in his truth and purpose. She tests him to feel his freedom and depth of love, to know that he is trustable....he should appreciate that she does these things [tests] to feel his strength, integrity, and openness. Her desire is for his deepest truth and love. As he grows, so will her testing."
Page 53 " But if you are a man who is living his fullest, willing to play his edge and grow through difficulties, then you will want her to test you. You may not like it. But you don't want her to settle for some bozo who depends on his woman's response to be happy." Let me repeat that "But you don't want her to settle for some bozo who depends on his woman's response to be happy."
"If you are aligned with your mission, you are essentially happy, even though times cycle between difficult and easy. You don't need your woman's stroke to fulfill your mission. It still feels good when she strokes you, but you don't need mommy anymore, telling you what a good boy you are. And your woman doesn't want you to need mommy."
"If your woman is weak, she may settle for a weak man... But if she is a good woman, a strong woman, she won't tolerate your childish needs for a pat on the head... A good woman will love the childlike part of you, but she wants your life to be guided by your deepest truths, NOT your untended childhood wounds."
"So she will test you. She might not be fully conscious of why she is doing it, but she will poke your weak spots, especially in moments of superficial success in order to feel your strength. if you collapse, you've flunked the test. You have let your woman deflate you. You have demonstrated your dependence on her for external validation." And I will repeat this: "You have demonstrated your dependence on her for external validation."
Page 54: "The most loving women are the women who will test you the most. She WANTS you to be your fullest most magnificent self. She won't settle for anything less."
Page 61: "Praise her. The masculine grows by challenge, but the feminine grows by praise. A man must be unabashed and expressed in his appreciation for his woman. Praise her freely."
Page 62: "Praise specific things you love about your woman 5-10 times a day."
Page 63: "A man gets resentful and frustrated with his woman when he is too afraid, weak or unskilled to penetrate her moods and tests of love."..."A man shouldn't tolerate bitchy and complaining moodiness in his woman, but he should serve and love her with every ounce of his skill and perseverance. Then if she cannot or will not open up in love, he might decide to end his relationship with her, harboring no anger or resentment, because he knows he has done everything he could."
Wow, Cemar, are those last two sentences the part you are referring to?? It looks like you have a lot of work ahead of you before you can get to the point of ending your relationship with your wife. At least according to Deida.
Disclaimer: I find Deida VERY interesting and he has many interesting points. I tend not to follow ANYONE wholeheartedly but to at least listen and acknowledge the truths that are there. Almost anyone will tell you that using external validation in place of self-validation is a recipe for disappointment and unhappiness.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Heywyre: You said that up until the children were born you did have a PM and yet you called your wife frigid in a diferent post. What is wrong with the term fridgid? If you don't desire sex and avoid it a lot, I would say that person is fridgid.
Cemar, you missed the point. Your wife was not always LD as you have stated. I remember you once posting that she used to give you BJs while you were driving. She became LD after the kids, so you need to figure out why. You've gotten a lot of theories here to start with. BTW, using the term "frigid" to describe your wife is derogatory and contemptuous. If this is the way you view your wife, certainly she is picking up on it.
THis is the irony of the situation, she can not fully trust me because I am unhappy and may leave her, just like others have done. But she is the CAUSE of my being unhappy in the marriage. She can not trust me fully because she senses that I may someday leave her because she has no sex drive because she does not trust me.
She is NOT the cause of your unhappiness. YOU ARE. Her fears of abandonment have nothing to do with your sex life. Those fears are the fears of the child in her. How often do you have sex with your wife? It sounds like it may be a lot more than many posters here.
Has it ever occurred to you that if she is having sex with you regularly, she thinks you're satisfied with that? Because her LL is clearly WOA/AOS, every time you refuse to recognize what she does for you and the family in those categories, she thinks she has to step it up and do more. And more. And more. She must know you are unhappy, but she assumes it's because you aren't happy with her as a (house)wife and mother, because those are the messages you are sending her by refusing to praise what she does.
As for my list, the most important aspect of the list is not what you do, its not how often you do them, its not how you do them, the important aspect is WHY you do them. For example, I would love BJ's. But the intimacy of the BJ comes from WHY she does it. If she does it because she WANTS to do it for herself, that is incredibly intimate. If she does it for me, that is far less valuable, and if I have to ASK for it, that is worth almost nothing, and if she does not want to do it, she will get NEGATIVE love bank points. This is why many relationship experts say that for many SSM's, the return of desire is a REQUIREMENT to saving the marriage.
Cemar, I think you believe deep down on an unconscious level that you aren't worthy of love, especially intimate love from your wife. Your beliefs and actions are allowing you to act out your self-fulfilling prophecy -- that you are unlovable. You blame your wife so you don't have to confront yourself with your greatest fear -- that you are unlovable. But you know what? That is the core fear of most human beings, so you aren't alone. You just need to recognize that this fear is what's driving your behavior and then figure out what to do about it.
I have read it at least a couple times. I personally prefer "Wild at Heart", the main difference is that Deida makes it too easy to give up and divorce, whereas Wild at heart basically says "Warriors" never give up no matter how many times we are called into battle.
Deida also makes it clear in his book that the man should never desire more then his wife, which I never did quit understand becuase most men have desire levels that most women could NEVER match. But Deida knows that when men desire more then the women, the men look NEEDY to the women.
"If you are aligned with your mission, you are essentially happy, even though times cycle between difficult and easy. You don't need your woman's stroke to fulfill your mission. It still feels good when she strokes you, but you don't need mommy anymore, telling you what a good boy you are. And your woman doesn't want you to need mommy." There are some key phrases here, the true Deida man is essentially happy. This is true, a man could go through live, find his mission, and never find a woman and be "essentially happy". This is not "completely happy", he has "essential" happiness. In other words, he has his goal, but NOT his reward. As far as the mommy part, it is the woman desire that is the stroking part, and we are to not NEED this from the woman, but at the same time, if we don't get it, then we have chosen poorly and should move on. This is contradicting himself, don't need your woman to desire you, but if she does not desire enough, move on to the next woman. If you don't need desire, then why move on? Moving on means you need desire! It means you need to be stroked!
Almost anyone will tell you that using external validation in place of self-validation is a recipe for disappointment and unhappiness. This is very key. I still struggle with how to NOT have this in my life. Achieving our goals is self validation. Receiving our reward is external validation. So to go beyond "essential happiness", this will require our reward, and this is external validation. "Wild at Heart" changes this and recommends that the man look to the woman for "approval" if he is being a good husband, because she can not give it as she has her own problems. But that book tells men to seek their approval from GOD. This transfers the external validation from the woman to GOD, thus taking the pressure off her, but external validation is STILL there. But from that book, it is still clear that the ULTIMATE goal is Desire and Admiration. Clearly a man can be "essentially happy", but he really wants the reward which raises the happiness MUCH, MUCH higher.
True, but you don't really get your approval from GOD until you meet Him after death. Instead, you're asking yourself whether, in your best judgement, you would get approval from GOD if you were to meet him right now. Thus you're still the one judging yourself and giving yourself approval if you meet God's standards as you understand them. It's still better than looking to your wife for your approval.
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
As for my list, the most important aspect of the list is not what you do, its not how often you do them, its not how you do them, the important aspect is WHY you do them. For example, I would love BJ's. But the intimacy of the BJ comes from WHY she does it. If she does it because she WANTS to do it for herself, that is incredibly intimate. If she does it for me, that is far less valuable, and if I have to ASK for it, that is worth almost nothing, and if she does not want to do it, she will get NEGATIVE love bank points. This is why many relationship experts say that for many SSM's, the return of desire is a REQUIREMENT to saving the marriage.
I think you are giving your W a pretty difficult sexual task to perform with this paragraph. Here's why. You are combining a sexual activity which only directly provides sensual gratification for you with a need to sense her desire or arousal for reasons of validation. I sometimes think that there is this odd dichotomy in male sexuality. If you read lists of male sexual fantasies or desires they always go something like:
1)Oral Sex 2)Anal Sex 3)Threesome
However, in my experience, with rare exceptions only, the number 1 with a bullet thing men want to do in bed is make a woman orgasm. I'm not coming up with a good way to explain myself but I think you are asking your wife to exhibit a very high degree of sexual responsiveness by combining a sensual and psychological desire. It is actually more difficult to be sexually responsive on demand than to be sexually assertive, IMO.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
She became LD after the kids, so you need to figure out why. Well, there are several reasons. #1, hormones. #2, she no longer like the way she looks. #3, she got a hypoactive thyroid after the first child. #4, she became to busy. #5 To much Mr. Nice Guy from me. #1 and #2 are the primary reasons according to her. She hate what has happend to her body, but she really struggles to lose weight (and she trys), so I don't really see her solving this (she was not a small person to start).
Has it ever occurred to you that if she is having sex with you regularly, she thinks you're satisfied with that? I am having sex on average about 6 times a year, not exactly regularly. Sometimes go for months without it.
She must know you are unhappy, but she assumes it's because you aren't happy with her as a (house)wife and mother, because those are the messages you are sending her by refusing to praise what she does. She knows deep down that I am unhappy because she is not physical with me, and I know this from hints in her comments. She once apologized for being so physical with me in our early relationship, which is so freaking stupid, she should be apologising for what she is TODAY, what she was before was good.
As for the unloveable, possibly. Men seek admiration and Desire from their wives. I would think that most normal people would WANT to know that they cause physical desire in their spouse. If we don't, then we fail, we are unloveable.
I am just wondering, why are we asking the HD men to change their LL? Everyone says to see the love they are giving in the WRONG LL. Why are us guys being expected to give up our own LL, and go to some LL that is FAR less fulfilling. Is it not the responsibility of BOTH spouses to speak the others LL. I just get the feeling that people are essentially giving LD women a pass on this one, that they believe that LD women can't really learn to speak the LL physical touch.
Cemar The reason the term frigid p*****s me off so much is that it was a term frequently used if I refused to have sex with various BF in the past. I was also told by more than one guy that I must be a lesbian because I chose not to have sex with them. These were not long term BF's maybe one or two dates and yet they felt they were entitled to have sex with me and being turned down gave them the right to label me as frigid. That is WHY the use of this word hacks me off so much.
I am neither frigid nor a lesbian and neither is your wife.
Are we talking about the same book "The way of the superior man"???? Nothing you say matches up to the book I have in front of me.
Deida makes it too easy to give up and divorce,
Page 151: "This is exactly what a mediocre man does: He stays with a woman or project as long as they interest him and turn him on. When the excitement seems to wear off, he moves on..."
Page 151:" although both of you are playing into this downward spiral of endarkening depolarization, you MUST NOT blame her. A superior man always assumes complete responsibility, knowing that ultimately, he has no control at all... He acts with impeccable courage and persistence, expecting NOTHING but the inherent feeling of completeness he enjoys in the fullest giving of his gift."
page 153: " Sometimes you must move on, to another job or another woman. That's fine, IF it is a true movement of growth: clear empowering and an aspect of ongoing giving of your gift. But, MORE OFTEN THAN NOT, your first impulse to move on comes when you have ceased invading the moment with your fullest capacity to give and are instead DRONING along, coping rather than creating"..."rather than deciding to move on because you are TOO WEAK to overcome your own neutralized lack of desire, try to take on the challenge of manifesting love in the dreary world and in your dreary woman."
Sorry but none of that sounds like an easy pass to leaving your woman. It sounds like he believes most superior men don't have to leave them. Deida also makes it clear in his book that the man should never desire more then his wife Where and in what context does he say this??? Please give the exact quote and page number.
This is contradicting himself, don't need your woman to desire you, but if she does not desire enough, move on to the next woman.
Again where specifically does he say this in the book? I am using direct quotes and I cannot find where Deida says anything that you are "quoting" from him.
Cemar,
What about you should your wife be attracted to? What would ANY woman find attractive in you? Seriously what do you believe makes you a great man and a great person?
For example, while I have numerous faults, I do believe I have certain characteristics that would attract some men (and one in particular:)). i know those characteristics and (try) to nourish them.
What are your characteristics that you nourish??
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
You make some good points concerning the other validation issue. I agree with you on most of what you’ve said. I have never met anyone who is totally self validating and I doubt I ever will. Even someone of thinks he is that, may only seem that way until problems arise and his wife leaves. Then that so called self validating man can fall into a funk like the rest of us. People have a natural tendency to seek approval from others, beginning as babies seeking approval from parents. It is inbreed. When that approval is lacking, FOO issues develop. So trying to turn around that natural tendency to seek validation and transform into a man who does not need validation from others is only theoretical at best. I do not think it is possible in reality. Even Schnarch writes in his book how he could not do it.
Like every thing else, a balance is needed. Too much other validation creates co-dependency problems. Too little creates insecurity and jealousy problems in the spouse, leading to undue amounts of testing. CeMar, I think you need to move a little more to the middle. You spend too much time arguing over theory, using holes in that theory as an excuse to do nothing. There is no right answer and there never will be. Stop hiding and avoiding. This is all a very passive aggressive tactic on your part. Own up to what you need to do and do it. It doesn’t matter where it falls within theory. You will have to refine anything you to do meet your circumstances anyway.
I don't complain to her about her lack of desire, I am actually TOO nice to her about it. Too much MR. Nice Guy syndrome. I do struggle to find a way to tell her she is basically failing in meeting ANY of my needs, but to do so in a way that will not cause her to give up, but to encourage her to work on it.
Don’t hide behind the excuse that you don’t express your needs because you need to rescue your wife from getting discouraged. You be responsible for putting your needs and emotions out there for her to understand. Let her be responsible for how she will deal with that. Your hiding will only keep both of you trapped in denial and stuck in your rut.
This sounds like the typical shame-based way of avoiding problems to me. Was this what your childhood was like, with no one saying anything so as to not put the other into a difficult position, thereby avoiding the need to deal with any problems and giving the impression that all was good and that you had a calm, peaceful, healthy childhood?
