Actually, I grew up with loving parents that married for life. Nothing unusual, maybe even BORING because we did not have many problems. This is one of the reasone my wife married me, for stability.
I probably express contempt because the problem is so freaking OBVIOUS, and yet my wife makes absolutely no effort to correct the problem.
The fact that I have stayed this long I think DOES show my empathy and compassion. Many other men would have LEFT her before now.
Obviously I don't know you, but I still think there's more to it than you're letting on. The again, maybe you are the shallow, self-absorbed dolt you appear to be.
Helloooooo! Your needs for PT are no more obvious to your wife than her needs for WOA are to you. You are just as clueless as she is. How dare you blame it all on her?
You haven't the faintest idea what empathy and compassion are.
And don't forget admiration. She probably craves that even more than she does compassion or understanding. Most people assume that she should never have had the chance to be anything but a useless child, but she's proud of having been something more (even if the person that bailed out and gave her that chance did something reprehensible) and she'd love it if you noticed and admired that and the skills, strength, and patience she gained from it.
Right, CE. Children require a lot of praise and encouragement, and Mrs. Cemar received none of that as a child. (Never mind the adult responsibilities and abuse she bore on top of that.) Now, as a mom to her own children, she prides herself on doing her job as a housewife (housekeeper) and mom well and she craves praise and encouragement for doing so. The fact that she receives none of that from her husband, the man she loves, must be incredibly frustrating and painful for her.
If CeMar’s wife is like mine, then too much praise is going to backfire too. With such a hard childhood, I bet CeMar’s wife has a very low sense of self esteem. Growing up in such a narcissistic setting makes a kid very insecure, even though they rise to take on lots of responsibility. But gaining responsibility through the support and encouragement of secure parents is one thing. Gaining responsibility out of fear and need for survival is another.
Mrs CeMar had to rise to the occasion because she had no choice. But I bet she was scared to death and doubt herself each time she had to make a decision. That does not breed healthy self esteem. My point is that while she seems to want admiration and respect, she may become very uncomfortable with it when she gets it.
CeMar, how does she respond to a compliment? Does she take it graciously and say thank you, or does she minimize it and say that what she did was no big deal, or what she is wearing is just an old dress that she threw on, or something along those lines? How a person handles compliments can be very telling. Adjust your praise to how she takes it and as well as how much you think she needs. Too much praise could sound insincere and like sucking up (the nice guy?), which will cause her to disrespect you.
Mrs CAC said: You haven't the faintest idea what empathy and compassion are.
Could it be that this was another reason why CeMar appeared safe to his wife when they got married? Even though she may want compassion, it is so very uncomfortable for her, since she never received it as a child, and CeMar’s logical, mater of fact, unemotional character seemed a comfortable fit for her defense system. She blocked out emotion as a child so she was attracted to someone who lacks in compassion.
Maybe the flip side is that CeMar wants compassion but likewise never received much of it as a child, so he might be uncomfortable with too much emotion too, so his wife is actually the perfect fit for him, based on his upbringing and the growth he needs to accomplish.
Personally I doubt CeMar’s family could have been so perfect. All families have problems. If there were no arguments or problems, then maybe his parents stuffed a lot of emotion and ignored issues rather than talk about them (recall that example I gave from the book The Narcissistic Fmaily). That sort of environment breeds a lot of shame and sort of fits with CeMar’s staunch religious beliefs. So perhaps what CeMar needs to do is better explore what really went on in his childhood and question whether everything was so rosy. Then he might find that he and his parents are human too and that it is ok to feel emotion, rather than just stuff it and turn to sex for a sense of connection. For me, it seems the pieces of the CeMar puzzle are slowly coming together.
he'd say "Really? OK, get an erection. Right now. Come on, get hard!" That would usually shut him up. The point is, only a few people can get themselves aroused on demand.
Also, physical arousal and emotional or mental desire don't necessarily overlap. Just because I walk around semi-aroused a lot of the time doesn't mean that I am eager to have any guy come near me. Sadly, I am actually pretty picky and monogamous. My life would probably be much easier if I were the "playstation" rather than the "peach".
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I agree with everything you said. I would bet that while Mrs. Cemar may appear to be fishing for compliments, if she actually receives them she doesn't accept them well. The classic scenario that comes to mind is someone telling Mrs.Cemar that they love her dress/shoes/purse and she says "what this old thing?" A lot of women do this, and I was one of them. I had to learn to simply say "thank you," even if I'm not feeling particularly attractive that day.
Perhaps Cemar could start with something simple such as telling her "dinner was tasty tonight" or "you look nice today" or something like that and then see what her reaction is.
Could it be that this was another reason why CeMar appeared safe to his wife when they got married? Even though she may want compassion, it is so very uncomfortable for her, since she never received it as a child, and CeMar’s logical, mater of fact, unemotional character seemed a comfortable fit for her defense system. She blocked out emotion as a child so she was attracted to someone who lacks in compassion.
I think this is very likely. I see some similarities between Cemar and his wife, and cac and me. (And cac always seems to "get" where Cemar is coming from.) I think one of the things that appealed to me about cac (and this was unconscious of course) was that he was logical and unemotional.
Maybe the flip side is that CeMar wants compassion but likewise never received much of it as a child, so he might be uncomfortable with too much emotion too, so his wife is actually the perfect fit for him, based on his upbringing and the growth he needs to accomplish.
This makes sense. I think in my early days I tended to channel my unemotional, type one mother and this is what cac was comfortable with, for probably very similar reasons that Cemar is.
Personally I doubt CeMar’s family could have been so perfect. All families have problems. If there were no arguments or problems, then maybe his parents stuffed a lot of emotion and ignored issues rather than talk about them (recall that example I gave from the book The Narcissistic Fmaily). That sort of environment breeds a lot of shame and sort of fits with CeMar’s staunch religious beliefs. So perhaps what CeMar needs to do is better explore what really went on in his childhood and question whether everything was so rosy. Then he might find that he and his parents are human too and that it is ok to feel emotion, rather than just stuff it and turn to sex for a sense of connection. For me, it seems the pieces of the CeMar puzzle are slowly coming together.
Yes! I think shame is the key. I believe it is the key with cac too and we have talked about that. With cac, I believe his ONLY emotional outlet has been sex, and that is why he needs it as a way to connect, moreso than he would if his emotions weren't repressed. He has said himself, here, that based on his meds and hypothyroidism he should be LD, but he isn't. The only explanation I can come up with is that sex is the only way he allows himself to feel emotion. Any other way is too painful because of FOO issues. I'd bet that this is the case with Cemar too.
I'll go so far as to say that when cac quit smoking he was very emotional. He was completely FREAKED out by that, and so was I. Neither one of us had a clue what to do. Of course, some of it was chemical, but I believe that part of it was that all the emotions he has repressed came tumbling out, without the nicotine/dopamine loop to keep it all carefully in check. It got so difficult for him that he went back to smoking out of desperation. I completely understood.
The important thing, though, is that while he was so in touch with his emotions, he was like a completely different person. He told me that hugging and kissing me felt so good that he didn't even feel like he needed sex. He talked of things that would have been unheard of while he was smoking, like selling the house or traveling or other things that he would never consider otherwise because change is so difficult for him. I was pretty much floored. Unfortunately, it was so unexpected that I didn't know how to handle it and I made some blunders which only added to the problem.
Simply put, I think Cemar is in denial.
And cac, I love you.
ETA: And now I wonder. And wait. Will cac be upset when he reads what I wrote? Will he be angry with me for divulging personal information about him? Am I crazy for worrying? Or normal? Why am I worried?
I probably express contempt because the problem is so freaking OBVIOUS, and yet my wife makes absolutely no effort to correct the problem.
Has your wife expressed that she thinks there is a problem with the marriage?
And if she thinks there is a problem, maybe she thinks it's so freaking OBVIOUS and that YOU make absolutely no effort to correct the problem.
What I don't understand with all of this is why you aren't willing to try ANYTHING. If you are so sure you want to be a passionate lover to your wife, I would think you would be willing to try anything no matter how unusual or risky. Since you've stated you plan on staying in the marriage at least 7 more years, why wouldn't you give some suggestions a try??
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
What I mean is obvious is HER contribution to the problem. My part of the problem could be ANYTHING. Her part of the problem is one and ONLY one thing, her desire for sex. But the LD women deep down KNOW this. Read the MLC boards, they KNOW this, they just don't want to ADMIT it. That is what is obvious.
What is the solution? I have no freaking clue. I have asked on here before, aparently most people don't know. But to get to a PM, the return of desire is a REQUIREMENT. Deida even says that us guys should never stay with a women whose desire is lower than our own. The reason why the return of desire is so important is because of what it does OUTSIDE the bedroom, not inside. Almost all of the daily interaction between husband and wife are influenced by desire. Heck, at least half of the things on my list from earlier this week are hard if not impossible for LD people to achieve.
Beyond that, what is the point of a relationship if there is no desire. I certainly would never continue dating a woman if she did not desire me, and is not marriage just an extended form of dating? Love without desire, why would anyone WANT that? Are there any LD ladies that would want a man that has no desire for you? If they don't want it, why should men be any different?
Cemar What is OBVIOUS is that many outside influences affect desire maybe more in women than men.
Maybe you're right and maybe there is nothing you can change about your own behaviour that will increase your W's desire. What pretty much everyone is pointing out is that by doing nothing you are guaranteed nothing will change.
You said that up until the children were born you did have a PM and yet you called your wife frigid in a diferent post. Clearly she wasn't frigid so what changed? She went into mummy mode did it occur to you at the time that having the kids brought back some pretty hellish memories. That maybe the abuse came back into her head and that was why her desire dropped? Did you reassure her or just complain that you were not having sex more often? Did you compliment her on being such a good mom/housekeeper at the time?
Chances are you withdrew emotionally yourself and her resentments built up much the way yours did but for different reasons.She thought she was showing her love for you by being a good mom and housekeeper not realising that the one thing you cared about was a great SL.
You fail to see how changing your attitude may help her overcome her problems and yet doing nothing hasn't worked. Being taken for granted and never being praised for doing what you see as a good job is a real desire killer for lots of women.
Maybe it doesn't make sense to you but I know never being complimented on doing a good job in the home causes resentment and that in turn causes lack of desire. You say that almost half the things on your list are hard to achieve if the OP is LD. This is ignoring WHY the person is LD in the first place.
I know it doesn't always work DIY's sitch is like that but at least he can see that without trying a different approach nothing will improve.
I don't see marriage as an extended form of dating more a contract between two people that good times or bad they will stick together. And yes you do agree that it is to the exclusion of others so are relying on your SL with that person. But the SL while an important part is not the only reason you love someone. If that was the case then I should have left my husband when he developed ED and showed little desire for me. Would it help if you could view your wifes lack of desire as a female form of ED? Probably not and yet by changing MY OWN behaviour we are now way more intimate than we have been for years. Most of your wish list that was missing in my own M is now being met.Not 100% but 100 times better than before.
Have you talked to your wife about any of this? Its taken you 4 years to really open up here with strangers so guessing not. She must have sensed your emotional withdrawal and is trying to show you how good a wife she is by doing more and more around the house.
Cemar of all the things I've read on here this has to be one of the saddest. Your bitterness shines out and if even some of this is seen by your wife she must be in a constant state of fear like she felt as a child. I am sad for both of you.
Really? You think it's soooooo vague? Seriously? I know you are in pain CeMar, I know you are lacking things in your marriage...but even I can see some pretty major things in YOUR attitude towards your wife that need to be addressed, that could make a very big difference in your marriage...and in getting you to the place you would like to be in your marriage, or at the very least closer to what you want and in a happier place...it's really not so vague as "could be anything", you have some DEFINITE things you need to work on and people have pointed them out to you time and time again. It's up to you to acknowledge those things and start taking responsibility for them...and working on them. If you don't, then not one of us here can help you, only you can help yourself. Hmmm...seems to remind me of a quote from the Bible, you should know which one I'm referring to.
