Sheer physicality

[SolidMechanic]

You said that one of your parents would be up while the other was down, and this worked for them.

I don't think I described this well enough. The point was NOT that my mom lifted my dad back up or vice versa. The point was that just because my dad got down about the possibility of losing the farm, my mom did not feel down. Her "up mood" did NOT lower because of my dad's mood. To me, if they were "fused", her mood would have changed because of his mood. Instead their moods were not dependent on each other but on their own personalities and circumstances.

Moods not being dependent on one another is more of a mark of differentiation. When the other's mood can easily bring you down, that is more a mark of fusion.

This also plays itself out in terms of self esteem. I used to compliment my wife's appearance all of the time, but she was constantly putting herself down. I started responding to her self put downs with compliments, but after a while, I got tired of trying to prop her up.

So you were paying her compliments with the expectation that you could "make" her feel better about herself?

I wasn't very clear here. When I would compliment her because I thought she looked good, she would start to cut herself down. So I stopped for a while because I didn't want to see the self flagellation. Lately she has been exercising regularly, and it's paying off. I complemented her and she was better at accepting the complement. The part of my behavior that was fused is when I would tell her that she look good in response to her telling me how she looked bad. This is rescuing behavior that is not doing either one of us any good, so I cut it out.

My attempts to prop her up have led me to lose respect for her.

Why? Seriously because I don't follow your logic.

I misspoke. If anything, my attempts to prop her up led me to loose respect for myself. What has led me to loose respect for her is watching her injure herself with damaging self talk or out of control anxiety without seeking out help of any kind in managing these issues. She spurns any suggestions for reading or therapy (both of which I have engaged in). The only thing I can offer is compassion and presence.

Since she has been exercising regularly, I have seen her self esteem improve, and my esteem of her has risen accordingly. I have a hard time having respect for someone who won't help herself.

SM

[fearless]

The part of my behavior that was fused

Okay so you understood that you were the one with the fused behavior. Good I did not want to have to point that out!!

What has led me to lose respect for her is watching her injure herself with damaging self talk or out of control anxiety without seeking out help of any kind in managing these issues.

I understand that a bit better although my reaction to people who injure themselves is more of pity. I guess that's a bit more personal. It's probably hard for me to hear because I am sure my XH viewed my struggle with bulimia more along the lines of lack of respect and not understanding it was a devastating mental state which was difficult to pull myself out of. It was definitely the most shameful period of my life for me and few people are aware of it. Partly because I assume, correctly I think, it would mean a loss of respect from some people. "How could someone have stooped to such a disgusting thing? Don't they have any self control? What is wrong with them?" (Ironically all the same things that we say to ourselves as we're trying to figure out how to quit!) Since I have directly heard those things about other people I am not sure why I wouldn't be thought of in the same way.

By the way, those closest to me ARE aware of the bulimia. I just don't necessarily feel like acquaintances need to know especially if they will not be supportive. I tend to look to surround myself with supportive and positive people.

[MJontheMend]

Partly because I assume, correctly I think, it would mean a loss of respect from some people.

Only people who are lacking the self-awareness to realize that they have/had their own issues/vices. I definitely used the cookie and all it's relatives to self-sooth in reaction to my dysfunctional sex-starved marriage. I managed to lose most of my excess weight while I was still married by a feat of will/dieting and exercise in an attempt to fix my part of the problem. Since my 2bx left, I no longer diet and I no longer overeat. I have lost the compulsion altogether. I should note that I was never overweight before my marriage although I did do some of the usual teenage girl binge and diet stuff.

I was a bit worried that I was simply substituting a new compulsion to get laid for my old compulsion for cookies (it was pretty chicken and the eggy in my marriage) but I'm beginning to think that won't be the case. My sexual validation needs were sky high, for obvious reasons, when I popped out of my marriage. I don't know if it's as obvious to you guys as it is to me but I have really experienced dramatic improvement in that regard. I should probably send out Thank You cards to all the men of Match who helped me. However, I'm going to pat myself on the back because putting myself out there repeatedly is what I needed to do and I did it. I am starting to feel as relaxed about my sexuality as I do about food. I can make fun choices and healthy choices and it will all be fine. The benefit of dealing with these issues is that I am going to be more free to be diverse or dispersed in my desires. I can enjoy the shrimp cocktail more if I'm not concerned about either eating or not eating dessert and I can enjoy pleasant conversation over dinner with a man more if I'm not concerned about whether or not sex will follow. Being a Type 7, I can never give up the pursuit of fun but I can raise my functioning by broadening and expanding and being more creative in my definition of fun and thereby make it much easier to find it all around me with or without a playmate.

NOTE TO SELF: Print out this post and put it somewhere to be read every day!

[SolidMechanic]

You found the emotional resources and developed the necessary self awareness to pull yourself out of it. That commands the utmost respect.

SM

[MJontheMend]

Babbling on. I've been reading the Mama Gena book and it occurs to me that there is a big difference between asking somebody to give you pleasure vs. asking someone to give you validation although they might superficially seem like you are asking for the same thing. For instance, you could say:

A) Would you like to fix me a piece of pie?

or

B) I really feel like a piece of pie would taste great right now.


Cemar could say:

A) Why won't you give me a blowjob?

or

B) I would love to get a blowjob this weekend.


I think Corri tried to make this point long ago and I didn't get it at the time. When we communicate our desires in the form "Me Want X" we make it clear to ourselves as well as those with whom we are communicating that we understand that our desires are our own responsibility and therefore make them easier to be fulfilled because there is no sense of obligation or "tit for tat" or entitlement implied. Maybe Mick Jagger was wrong. It might actually be easier to get what you want than what you need because "want" is so much more attractive and easily fulfilled than "need". Validation almost always seems to be a need rather than a want. I think it would be another word if it was a want. Maybe affirmation. As in "I think I look fat in my new jeans so I need you to validate my hotness so I'm going to ask for your opinion" vs. "I think I look hot as h*ll in my new jeans. Thank you for affirming it with that wolf whistle."

[fearless]

Thanks. I am proud of the fact I figured my way through it although I really wish I never sunk into it in the first place!!

By the way I noticed your signature and forgot to ask Who Dey??

[cemar2]

MJontheMend:

You forgot one option, someone giving you pleasure without asking at all. My wife and I watched that movie with Vince Vaughn and Jennifer Anniston. In that movie there is a scene where she comes home and the apartment is a mess. She is VERY disappointed and upset with him. He asks why? SHe replies that the apartment is a mess. His reply is "You don't have to get mad, all you had to do is ask". Her reply, "But I wanted you to care enough to do it without me asking".

Right then and there, I am thinking, here is the female equivalent of the same problem us HD guys have. Both sexes in marriage do this, we want things from our spouse without having to ask for them. Very simple reason, they mean a heck of a lot more when we DON"T have to ask. This is why desire is SOO important. Sure we can ask for things from our spouse, but the immediately devalues what we ask them to do for us. When they meet our needs before we ask, that is worth FAR more.

[Heywyre]

That might be the case Cemar but, bottom line, people aren't mind readers

[MJontheMend]

Okay, there are two things going on in the Hollywood example you gave. Jennifer Aniston wants the sensual pleasure of arriving home to a clean comfortable home AND Jennifer Aniston wants the validation that Vince cares about her. The more that Jennifer Aniston recognizes that the clean, comfortable home is a sensual pleasure that she craves in the greedy, selfish but absolutely healthy way that we all crave sensual pleasures, the easier time she will have separating that desire from her need for validation of Vince's love. I didn't see the movie but perhaps Vince does love and did miss Jennifer Aniston but instead of cleaning the house, he spent the day writing a love poem or fantasizing about hot sex with her or planning a weekend getaway or maybe he loves her and missed her but because he is a human being with his own selfish cravings for sensual pleasure, he spent the day eating potato chips and playing video games.

What if Vince hired a maid to clean the apartment before Jennifer came home? Would he love her as much? What if your wife hired an escort to give you a blow-job? Would that prove that she loved you or that she didn't love you?

I never naturally clean house to prove that I care about somebody. I do it because I like a certain amount of order myself and because I take pride in being a good citizen in a relationship. I really don't enjoy cleaning house.

I really do enjoy giving blow-jobs but I don't think I give them to prove that I care about somebody either. I give them because I enjoy the sensual pleasure myself and because I enjoy the ego gratification that I get when I am affirmed in my belief that I give great head. So, if you were married to a HDW like me you still wouldn't get your validation needs met through blow-jobs because you would KNOW that your HD partner wasn't doing it just to please you or prove her love or whatever would equal validation in your mind. She would be fulfilling her own wants, not yours. Therefore, you would still be unsatisfied and searching for the thing she could do that would fulfill your need for validation and you might find yourself obsessing about the fact that she never cleaned the coffee pot even though she knows you can't stand the taste of bitter residue and therefore she must not care about you and just be a selfish slut who only cares about getting her rocks off by giving you head.

[heatherg]

MJ, that was a wonderful post, lol. Hopefully Cemar will get it.