Good to hear some rational common sense on this thread for once. Choc’s title bothered me too. All the posts on this thread after Choc announced that he had filed bother me. In fact, I am pretty well disgusted with everyone rallying around Choc to congratulate him on ending his marriage. WTF!? Is this what this board has become? If everyone is so keen to end their pain, then stand up and file yourself. Stop living vicariously, cheering Choc on to do the tough things you all don’t have the guts to do!
You misinterpreted my post. I am simply writing to Choc urging him to manage the tone and tenor of the upcoming inevitable conflict so as to minimize the collateral damage. If I were in his shoes, I'd be getting a divorce, too. The fact that this is a "Divorce Busting" site may be incompatible with my current bias towards divorce, which is why I have stood on the sidelines. ChocolateEyes implied this in an earlier post: marriage is precious, but it is not worth more than your integrity. I don't know how many discussions I've seen where the posters would give anything to keep their marriage together. I feel very sorry for many of them and the bad bargain they are offering.
The book I recommended is very supportive of people who feel the need to get divorced. She rails against the guilt trips that get placed on divorcees. She gives hard statistics showing that couples that can manage conflict and negotiate custody issues reasonably end up with healthy family lives and health kids. And she rails against the scientifically dodgy studies screaming that divorce is the end of civilization.
SM
"If we will be quiet and ready enough, we shall find compensation in every disappointment." Henry David Thoreau
The fact that this is a "Divorce Busting" site may be incompatible with my current bias towards divorce, which is why I have stood on the sidelines
What is going on in your own sich? Are you in still in GAL mode but heading towards divorce? Is your wife aware of your state of mind? You can answer on my thread if you want to avoid hijacking choc's. My thread is open to those with all sorts of biases - lol.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I have to say sometimes your posts really open my eyes, and sometimes I can't help but shake my head. I guess everyone has different opinions.
You understand NOTHING about it if you think divorce or the decision to divorce is easy. True, folks in Hollywood seem to get married/divorced at the drop of a hat. But for normal people it is one of the hardest things ever to do. The people involved have typically invested years if not decades into their future, and divorce means starting over in so many areas of life. Sure we all talk about how "easy" it would be to get a new partner with all the "fish in the sea." But the reality is that thought, while tempting during daydreams, is incredibly frightening to most of us.
Frankly, the tone of much of your post was highly insulting, especially the part about us posters rallying around Choc so that we can live vicariously through him. That is absolute, ridiculous trash (to put it in the mildest terms that come to my mind), and if that is all you can come up with I suggest you go back into retirement. I am amazed that Choc took the time to respond to you given the vituperativeness of your post.
I remember awhile back you took the same tone with Corri. You've never learned your lesson have you? You are the one who is in dire need of counseling.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
I don’t see your wife doing anything different over the last 70 days that what you have done over the previous few years with your don’t-give-a-shititis. You were just as entrenched in your self pity as self righteousness at that time as she is entrenched now. She is using a different tactic and has upped the ante, otherwise I only see tit for tat and a higher level. I agree that her indiscretions at this time are very serious, but don’t discount how much impact your apathy over the years has had on your kids too. IMO, you are getting into self-justification waters.
I am not offering you any advice at all. I am discussing what has been posted on this public board and offering my interpretation. I really could care less if you even read it. My point is to those others reading your sitch and thinking, hey, maybe I should just bail out, that would solve all my problems. If this board is truly about self growth, as NH stated, then I see little growth forthcoming in your or your wife when you jump out of the marriage just at the time when events become critical and the potential for the most advancement and understanding has arrived.
I look at the type of situation MrsChoc is going through as every bit a mental illness. While I do not consider MLC to be an “illness” per se, I do think each person’s case has a series of identifiable causes and cures. What is not easy is to know what those cures are or to get the other person to learn from those cures. I even believe Mojo’s ex is curable, but he does have to hit bottom and become open to the remedy (though I do think your ex is an extreme case, Mojo). That means growth does not occur until the bottom is hit. That means sticking out the relationship as that bottom approaches. That means not bailing out when things get really, really bad.
In fact, if people can step back for a moment and look at how these stages occur, you might see that the time to bail is when the first signs of trouble occur, assuming one has the knowledge and foresight to recognize those signs. The time it takes to get to the bottom is uncertain. It could take months or it could take years. But once at the bottom, we arrive at the bottom, I think we should actually be happy because it is very likely that the worst is behind and things will start to get better. It is counter-intuitive to how things feel at the time, but it is predictable human psychology.
One other comment to Mojo’s statement that lending fusion to a spouse will not help to forestall a divorce …. In principal I agree, if that fusion causes the growth process to stop, but my point is that when a person is in turmoil and having to re-evaluate the reality of what is going on (much less who they are) growth can become overwhelming. If a relationship has deteriorated to the point we are talking about, it is a pretty sure thing that both people have some major changes to make. The magnitude of these changes says something about how far each person has had to “push” him/herself off balance in order to survive. That “off balance” position required seeing the world in a certain way to justify their current predicament, which means their whole sense of self is wrapped up in this perception. The ego is inextricably wrapped up in all this and can only take so much change at a time. The person also has to suffer from some level of low self-esteem. Too much therapy and growth will feel like jumping off the cliff of who they currently know themselves to be. I believe recovery has to come gradually in order to avoid backlash. So this is where I can see lending some fusion to the partner is a good thing. It gives them a rock to stand on and catch a breath of air when they feel like they are drowning in the overwhelming events and new ideas coming at them. I think that fusion should be temporary, but I do think it can be very, very helpful.
That means growth does not occur until the bottom is hit. That means sticking out the relationship as that bottom approaches. That means not bailing out when things get really, really bad.
Well, I would say that my relationship had hit bottom when I joined this BB. At the time I chose to divorce, the relationship was doing better but I was doing even better than the relationship perhaps. Therefore, in accordance with your stock market analogy of human psychology, I chose to sell out the stock of my marriage at a point that I had rationally determined that it had reached a level that it was not going to exceed and I could afford to take the loss due to decreased responsibilities towards my dependents and a forecast of good profits to be achieved through alternate investments. In a sense, when I finally said to my 2bx "If you wish me to stay in this marriage, I would like some assurance that I will see value in the three areas of sex, social interaction and financial security." and he replied that he could/would offer no assurance in those areas, it would have been wholly irrational for me to continue to invest in the relationship, regardless of the fact that my overall financial situation had improved. It is ridiculous to make a bad investment simply because you can afford to take a loss.
Therefore, I see your argument that temporary fusion can be helpful as equivalent to the argument that it was a good thing for the government to bail out the auto companies. Those of us who are experiencing the current mini-depression occurring in Michigan might argue that your POV is short-sighted unless you simply feel it is justified to the extent that your children need protection like the auto workers.
Last edited by MJontheMend; 07/26/0701:54 PM.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Its always hard to think that you’ve given everything you can to the marriage, and things still get worse, and then receive no validation of that effort, only to hear that there was even more that you could have done. I know the feeling. My wife throws that at me too, that she has given and given so I should not expect her to give any more. But from my perspective, she is so entrenched in her POV at times, that any movement off center will feel like a huge concession to her, while I see it as only the beginning of a much bigger change needed. So am I wrong to expect more or is she misguided in her perceptions of where she is and where she needs to be?
I know you have given a lot to your marriage, with minimal response from your wife, so I understand how my comments may seem callous to you. You might be right about me, but I might also be seeing something from a perspective you don’t see. Who knows?
Oh, and I do fully understand the consequences of divorce and how hard that decision is. I went down that road, remember?
As I am sure many of you have seen, I have witnessed many people spend YEARS AND YEARS of their lives trying to reconcile a marriage...to no avail. This is a terribly personal decision for each and every one of us. I don't blame anyone for doing what Choc is doing...in fact, I would hope I would have the ability to know that my life is much too precious to waste on someone who does not want me or want to be intimate with me. Please don't condeme someone for moving ahead...seeing the way he needs to live his own life and to protect his children. If a person wants to spend their time, perhaps years, working it out, then that is honorable for them. But for others...they have every right to decide for themselves what is best...and to be honest, I would have to do it to keep my sanity. I would be an emotional and physical wreck living like this. I respect anyone for giving it their all, not matter now long it might take...and I also respect someone who just cannot take anymore and stands up for themselves, chosing to move forward with their life. I had a boyfriend who left me to go back to his ex-wife...she begged for another chance after having affairs, kicking him to the curb more than once...and he was just an emotional basketcase because of all of it. And yes, he loved her very much...but within a year, she did it again and guess what...now he is alone and worse off than before. Yes, that was his choice and his alone. That is the road HE chose to take...and Choc has that choice to make. He has that right...and it is the right choice for him, not anyone else. His wife made her choice too...
Divorce is not necessarily the end of the road. Choc is not having his wife KILLED, for Pete's sake. There is life after divorce, separately or together.
Choc is doing what he thinks is best and we are supporting him. If he decided to dig in and give her more chances, we would likely support that.
sheer length of the sexless marriage he's put up with. Couple that with an affair and that's pretty much a given.
Well, not quite a given, considering that sounds like my M in a nutshell and here we still are. But the A is long over with, the SSM came before and continues after. ::groan:: But there's always more to the picture with an SSM than just no S. As ya'll know. Anyway. Not to hijack, just saw that quote and felt compelled to comment.
Choc, I've spent quite some time online of late catching up with you. I was out of state for several weeks - my mom died suddenly and unexpectedly, and let me tell you that completely hits the Reset button on your world, and what you previously thought was The Biggest Problem In Your Life. I'm just sayin'
A: I support you choc, I've thought you really (with NOPs help) took the bull by the horns and faced many things head on. I have admired your 180s since the 1st night your wife came home late from her night out with co-workers.
B: I agree with much of what Cobra stands for :::BI ducking and running::: -perhaps not directly associated with choc's situation, but for my own and how tempting it has been to separate (we've talked that talk before) and hope for "better" outside of this M, vs. the hard, f*cking WORK of staying in the M with no guarantees of 'happy ever after', butting heads about what's important to each of us (and our inadequacies in meeting those needs easily), and slogging through it.
Sorry, ya'll. I've not posted on my own blog in ages and apparently my brain is going through pontificating withdrawl. All this to say, I see both sides of this fence. Carry on.
Forget the former things; do not dwell on the past. See, I am doing a new thing! Is 43:18-19
If it seems slow in coming, wait. It's on its way. It will come right on time. Hab 2:3
