I am still trying to understand you and what you want (and by that I mean the subconscious desire). Your most recent post on the "sexless marriage" thread gets back to your demanding way of writing. It seems odd that someone can write about something so lovely as affection with such a hard, bitter and confining tone. There is so much anger and animosity that comes through when you write about sex, desire and your wife that it is hard to imagine that you have any kind of loving feelings toward your wife.
1) Is there anything nice that you can say about your wife? Do you ever have anything nice to say directly to her? 2) Does your wife do anything loving or caring for you? Does she ever give you a compliment? 3) If your religion would suddenly say "divorce for any reason is perfectly acceptable," would you be filing for divorce tomorrow morning without one look over your shoulder? 4) Bottom-line are YOU willing to work to get the relationship you want or do you see it as solely your wife's responsibility to do the work?
I had written a response to your post with the answers and list but after your post yesterday and without the above answers I am not sure it is worthwhile to post. If you answer all the questions above AND still want to pursue a discussion, let me know and I will post my response.
FWIW - Martelo was trying to tell you that letting GO of some wants can actually be a positive step in the right OVERALL direction. To me you seem like the monkey who puts his hand in the coconut and won't let go of the trinket. Do you know that story??
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
1) Is there anything nice that you can say about your wife? Do you ever have anything nice to say directly to her?
Sure, she is a wonderful teacher, she is a nice person, she is very ambitious, she takes good care of the children, takes care of the house, takes care of the domestic stuff. I compliment her on occasion. That's a little hard since she never speaks my love languages.
2) Does your wife do anything loving or caring for you? Does she ever give you a compliment? No, not really. She probably thinks she is doing LOTS of things for me, but the truth is, none of it is my love language, it is hers. She is forever stuck in MOM mode.
3) If your religion would suddenly say "divorce for any reason is perfectly acceptable," would you be filing for divorce tomorrow morning without one look over your shoulder? No. I would wait until my youngest child leave home, and he is only 11. No reason for him to have to suffer just because MOM is fridgid.
Bottom-line are YOU willing to work to get the relationship you want or do you see it as solely your wife's responsibility to do the work? I will do whatever I have to. The problem is that I am not the determining factor. THe LD spouse is ALWAYS the determining factor. Sure, I can become more attractive, but that is NOT going to change any of HER problems. Look at my list, what can I directly change today?
FWIW - Martelo was trying to tell you that letting GO of some wants can actually be a positive step in the right OVERALL direction. To me you seem like the monkey who puts his hand in the coconut and won't let go of the trinket. Do you know that story?? The woman I married DID everything on that list. What exactly would I give up? Why should I accept LESS from marriage while the wife gets MORE from marriage.
Sure, I can become more attractive, but that is NOT going to change any of HER problems.
Are you sure? Hanging around an attractive person has a way of perking people up. Think about how you'd feel if a cute young hottie started paying attention to you. Never mind whether you'd reciprocate or encourage anything; just think of how it would make you feel. Your wife would get that same charge if an attractive man (you, if you play your cards right!) paid attention to her.
Your youngest is 11. You and your wife should be stepping out regularly, since there's no need for babysitters. Join a gym, go out on dates, do things together that take both your minds off your problems and let you have fun together.
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
Cemar while I don't know if my wife french kisses me because she really truly wants to, but we do make out like teenagers quite often now.
She also has taken to initiating, and is becoming more comfortable with oral sex.
My contributions to the situation were many some by being non direct about my needs I avoided the possibility of rejection and when I was rejected I was very pissy. When my wife did offer me "table scraps" I took them because I was unwilling to ask for the real thing.
Allot of what I suffered from was what could be described as fusion. My emotional hose was plugged into her approval, if she didn't want to suck my dick then she must not love. If she did not want to suck my dick or french kiss me then it was proof that I wasn't good enough.
I see you in much the same light as I did except you seem so stuck on having it the way it was. If you honestly look back on the beginning of your relationship can you say that the sex you were having was truly intimate or was it just hot monkey sex.
You're starving yourself because you won't see all the things that you wife does do that shows that she loves and cares for you just because she doesn't do it in your love language.
Language is about communication and part of communication is listening. Your not listening to the way your wife does love you, maybe if you did you could see that the world is an abundant place and there is allot of love for you.
I think one of the mistakes that HD people get themselves into trouble with is that they start to make sex and sexual approval more and more important. So that when they are dealing with their LD partner it becomes heavier and heavier. HD people can become like trolls stopping around demanding that the princess (or prince) " give them your golden treasure ".
Cemar I really think you should read the book by Dr.Glover and do the exercises in his book.
I've tried to help you as much as I can, but I'm done. good luck.
Just checked online how to french kiss and the reason I didn't enjoy was because the guys I kissed in the past were doing it wrong. There were no internet instructions and most guys thought french kissing meant sticking their tongue half way down your throat so thats why I was so anti. Having read the correct tequnique I realise I would enjoy it done properly and agree it wouldn't be a problem. Sadly the internet didn't exist when I was dating but you live and learn.
Okay Cemar. Let's start off with the biggest most helpful piece of information I got from your post. Because of your son, you are committed to another 6-7 years at home with your wife, right? You want you and your wife to be passionate lovers? So what if you took the next 6 months and focused your energy toward yourself and expected and wanted NOTHING from your wife? After that self imposed "sabbatical" from any expectations on your wife, then you could figure out what the next step is. What would it hurt to try a self imposed sabbatical? I know you do not think you are a hurdle to being passionate lovers but you did say I will do whatever I have to. so why not try this?
Now let me comment on your comments:
I compliment her on occasion. That's a little hard since she never speaks my love languages.
What does your love language have to do with complimenting her? What you seem to MEAN is that you are so resentful about not getting what you want from her that you cannot appreciate anything else she does. True? So if she is not speaking your love language, then you will not speak her love language. Is that the case?
No, not really. She probably thinks she is doing LOTS of things for me, but the truth is, none of it is my love language, it is hers. She is forever stuck in MOM mode.
Again so she may do many loving things for you but you resent the fact that she does not do your LL. You will refuse her LL gestures to you because they are not your LL. Hmmm Is it possible that she is not speaking your LL because you will not speak her LL? Has she even read the LL book?
The LD spouse is ALWAYS the determining factor.
This is NOT true!!
What if someone is LD because their HD spouse is abusive to them? Who is the determining factor? What if someone is LD because their HD spouse stops bathing and brushing their teeth? Is it the LD's fault they lost their desire? What if someone is LD because their HD spouse stopped saying please and thank you and just takes them for granted? What if they are LD because qualities they loved and were attracted to in their spouse disappeared? What if the HD person constantly criticizes and complains about the LD spouse? Is the LD spouse really the determining factor in these examples???
I am NOT saying that it is all the HD's fault either. I am saying that the relationship is in trouble and could be improved by EITHER party which in turn will help the sex and other characteristics of a good marriage.
If you really believe that you don't need to change a thing and it is ALL your wife's fault, what are you doing here? There must be some small part of you that HOPES you can actually do something. Otherwise it must feel very hopeless to have to sit and wait for someone else to do the work to make you happy.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
What does your love language have to do with complimenting her? What you seem to MEAN is that you are so resentful about not getting what you want from her that you cannot appreciate anything else she does. True? So if she is not speaking your love language, then you will not speak her love language. Is that the case? That is not what I mean. My wife does something that I see from some of the other LW ladies on this board. She fills her schedule with an incredible number of things, loves to be very busy. Then she tells me ALL of the things that she has done during the day, almost fishing for compliments. She seems to think that she is doing this for US. So she just expended all of her energy for the day doing things that really don't matter to me, they matter to HER. And then she expects me to appreciate all she has done. I don't freaking CARE if the house is clean, or if the bathrooms are clean, DOMESTIC life when my life is devoid of physical intimacy. It's like "See how much I did today, aren't I a good wife". She is focusing all of her efforts on the WRONG stuff, and actually exhusting herself doing it. Why do women DO THIS! WHo is telling women that this is the IMPORTANT stuff in marriage? I swear she does this to impress OTHER WOMEN, it certainly is not for me.
What does your love language have to do with complimenting her? What you seem to MEAN is that you are so resentful about not getting what you want from her that you cannot appreciate anything else she does. True? So if she is not speaking your love language, then you will not speak her love language. Is that the case? No. I will glady speak her love language. But she does not have the ability to speak my love language. Being very LD, this makes it almost impossible for her to speak physical touch ENTHUISIASTICALLY ( in other words, with desire).
As for the LD being the determining factor, I can understand your points that the HD person may have caused the LD. But the LD is still determines if the marriage succeeds. Successful and quality marriages normally are those that have the smallest differences in sex drives. If the HD person changes and becomes a high quality spouse, will that fix the marriage, no. The fix is that the LD spouse must CHANGE their level of desire. If the LD spouse can not change their level of desire, there is absolutely NOTHING the HD spouse can do to fix their marriage. If the LD spouse is the woman and the HD spouse is the man, the LD woman actually has the ability to change the marriage DIRECTLY, while the HD man can only change the marriage INDIRECTLY.
Otherwise it must feel very hopeless to have to sit and wait for someone else to do the work to make you happy. If men could truly be happy on their own, then why would we need women? I can go through life and be happy wihtout a great sex life. I can also go through life and HAVE a greate sex life. THe second is SO FAR beyond the first in levels of happiness as to make the first seem UNHAPPY. On the happiness scale it is like a 10 versus a 5.
I know how to French kiss. I put my tongue in her mouth, but I am not trying to go down her throat. I also like to let it go back and forth from mouth to mouth.
I have come to see your marriage in a different light, after you made some mention of your wife's aversion to intimacy and touch. Your comments now seem consistent with this. But you are still left with the problem of what to do about it. That means you are going to have to help yourself, and if you want ideas from people here, you are going to have to help them come up with suggestions. When are you going to tell us more about you and your wife's background and what you think may have contributed to her being this way. Did she ever experience or see some sort of trauma or abuse in her past?
My wife grew up as a neglected child. Around the age of 9, her parents split when BOTH were cheating. Her mother was a drunk and did little for the children. She had many boyfriends in the house. My wife essentially had to run the household at the age of 9. Often the mother was gone for several days. My wife had to raise her siblings. THe house was a mess, they often slept on sheets the dogs had peed on. Often my wife had to call realatives to bring food over when there was no food in the house. My wife has scars on her body from childhood falls that should have been stiched up, but the mom never took her to get fixed up. The mom eventually remarried and the stepdad may have tried to sexually assault my wife, although she now says that he was to drunk to do anything and passed out (but this story has been toned down over the years). At 16, she moved out and went to live with an ex boyfriends family. Her natural mother had a digust for men in general, they were the cause of her problems in life, and her adopted mother at 16, is possible the most fridgid women I have ever seen, she has slept on the couch for like 50 years. So obviously there are no good female roel models in my wife life. In addition, many of the men if my wifes life have LEFT her. First her DAD, then some of her long term boyfriends. She was also always poor, and sometimes I think she married me for my wealth potential, which did not materialize. We are not poor, just not rich. She seems to value THINGS in her life.
I still think she has the "who wants to want" problem. This condition can supposedly appear well into the marriage. It basically is the situation where as children we want love from our parents, and when it never comes, we learn to NOT need love from others, we build walls between us and REAL intimacy, for fear that it will not last. My wife would of course DENY this, she is afterall a strong women with no problems.
