You people are missing the point regarding CeMar’s POV regarding happiness, which I think is correct. Sure a person can be happy by his/herself, just as they were before marriage. All that needs to be done is somehow forget the higher level of happiness they enjoyed while the marriage was good. But once you take a bite of that forbidden apple, you can’t go back. That’s the thing about happiness. Its relative. People who decide they have to move on from a sexless marriage can become happy by avoiding comparisons of the happiness they once had in a loving relationship. Do this and your current state doesn’t look so bad and you can be “happy.”
What CeMar wants is to have the state of happiness he once knew. The gap between that memory and where he is now is what makes him unhappy. I see nothing wrong with wanting to reach a higher level. The problem is not that this higher level of past happiness is not attainable, because in theory it is. The problem is that one partner does not feel comfortable at that level. So CeMar’s task is to find a way to make his wife comfortable at that “higher” level.
Some people want to get to this level but don’t understand how to do it. Learning, training, counseling can overcome this. Others, like CeMar’s wife and many others her, including my wife, have bigger issues that make it way to scary to want to go to this level. They need to have enough motivation to overcome that fear and push on to become acclimated to the higher air. That might mean the spouse needs to make the new level more inviting. But with CeMar’s wife (and mine), even that does not seem to be enough. That is what trauma will do to a person.
So the one alternative is to just sit by, wait, and occasionally try to cajole the traumatized spouse to step up. That takes a lot of patience. The other way is to push, which is what Choc is now doing. Make the current status quo so uncomfortable that the spouse will see moving to the higher plane of happiness as the easier path. The risk is that the spouse will not see it that way, will see the status quo and the higher plane as both threatening, and leave the marriage. So you better know what you are up against, or you may shoot your self in the foot.
CeMar, do you have any idea on how your wife views this higher plane? From what little you have said, it sounds like it will scare her, that she cannot handle intimacy. Is this correct, and just how scary do you think that is for her? Is it really a matter of life or death in her eyes, or just a discomfort that she has not gotten around to addressing?
So your saying that if I live in a passionless marriage, I should be just as happy as if I lived in a passionate marriage?
Of course not. But you can still be happy. Being miserable only reduces your chances of getting a passionate marriage while leaving you miserable. Not too smart!
From the age of 12 to 18 (or even later) our parents considered it one of their most important duties to ensure that our sexual needs were never, ever met. And yet, sometimes we managed to be happy. I know I was from time to time. I would have been a lot happier if I'd had my head screwed on straight, but I still managed to find some happiness every now and then.
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
What CeMar wants is to have the state of happiness he once knew. The gap between that memory and where he is now is what makes him unhappy. I see nothing wrong with wanting to reach a higher level. The problem is not that this higher level of past happiness is not attainable, because in theory it is. The problem is that one partner does not feel comfortable at that level. So CeMar’s task is to find a way to make his wife comfortable at that “higher” level.
Some people want to get to this level but don’t understand how to do it. Learning, training, counseling can overcome this. Others, like CeMar’s wife and many others her, including my wife, have bigger issues that make it way to scary to want to go to this level. They need to have enough motivation to overcome that fear and push on to become acclimated to the higher air. That might mean the spouse needs to make the new level more inviting. But with CeMar’s wife (and mine), even that does not seem to be enough. That is what trauma will do to a person.
But where is the evidence that he has done anything to make the new level with him more inviting? Where's the attractiveness that would make her forget all her "reasons" for pulling away and drive her enthusiastically into his arms? He's having trouble getting himself into the mindset that breeds confidence and attractiveness. It looks to me like she would love nothing more than to get to that level... hell, she gives him opportunities to attract her and help her into that level every time he asks, and does all she can to meet his needs in the meantime... but she can't do it without his help and he can't help her until he gets into a better mindset.
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
You people are missing the point regarding CeMar’s POV regarding happiness
I think I get Cemar's point, but it seems like he thinks he can sit around and wait for things to happen the way he thinks they should happen. We all know life doesn't work that way. We create our own reality, we must create our own happiness. Cemar has his views and he wants the rest of the world to conform to them and make him happy. It sure would be great if things could work that way, but we usually learn at quite a young age that people don't do what we want them to just because we want them to. For some reason, Cemar seems to be having trouble accepting that and he falls back on his morals when he is questioned about moving on if he can't make it work out. So, he's put himself in a no-win situation and made a comfy little space out of being a victim. I haven't seen much indication that he's willing to step outside of that space.
There absolutely has to be priorities in life and most of us have at least rudimentary boundaries. Cemar has indicated that because of his values, he will be married for life. He has made that his top priority, nothing else can shake that. So, he is putting his values first. With that comes consequences, same as someone who chooses to have an A and put their values on the back burner. Opposite ends of the moral spectrum, but consequences nonetheless. We choose our happiness and Cemar is quite obviously choosing his, but he's playing the victim so well that sometimes it is hard to see it.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Where's the attractiveness that would make her forget all her "reasons" for pulling away and drive her enthusiastically into his arms?
I’m going on the assumption based on CeMar said that she will not ever go enthusiastically into his arms nor anyone else because of her issues, no matter what CeMar does.
He's having trouble getting himself into the mindset that breeds confidence and attractiveness.
Agreed.
It looks to me like she would love nothing more than to get to that level... hell, she gives him opportunities to attract her and help her into that level every time he asks, and does all she can to meet his needs in the meantime... but she can't do it without his help and he can't help her until he gets into a better mindset.
I don’t recall evidence of this. I think she does what she believes is right, just as CeMar does. It stands to reason that if CeMar is strongly religious, she is too. That doesn’t mean she does her part in order to attain intimacy. She may only do her part because that is what she believes a home maker and mother wife should do. For some reason she does not seem to include sex and intimacy in those roles.
My original point was that I think it is ok for CeMar to want more, or for anyone else to want more. How can you not, once you’ve tasted more? How do you but that genie back in the bottle? IMO, attempts to do so are really nothing more than self-bran washing. Wash hard enough and you might be able to convince yourself that you are happy.
Rather than waste time trying to convince yourself that you are happy making do with less, do something proactive to get more and then really be happy.
Heather,
I agree with your comments too. CeMar does himself no favors and thinks he has painted himself into a corner with no outs. His wife knows this and can take advantage of it. Perhaps she is not as moral as CeMar, assuming CeMar would not take advantage of her in that way because of her religious constraints (would you CeMar?)
But you are right in that CeMar does have options but hides behind moral excuses so he does not have to make the more difficult choices. The problem is that I don’t think it has to be this way, if CeMar would only open up a little more and be honest with his wife. If she has issues, then he needs to talk to her about them and do everything he can to get her into counseling. But it will require confrontation, and this seems to scare CeMar.
Rather than waste time trying to convince yourself that you are happy making do with less, do something proactive to get more and then really be happy
Exactly. But "more" may not mean sex. "More" may mean something entirely outside the relationship that brings him joy in its own right. Then he can be happy. Not as happy as he'd be with that something else and sex, but happier than he is "proactively" trying methods to get sex that don't work.
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
...happier than he is "proactively" trying methods to get sex that don't work.
IMO, CeMar is not doing ANYTHNG proactively to get sex. He refuses to discuss and explore the root of his wife's problems, so everything he does is the wrong action because they do not address the core issue. How can you fix something that is broken, but you don't know what that something is?
Cemar ask how do you "fix" the problem of his wifes uncomforted with intimacy on another thread.
I don't have an easy answer but I can share a bit.
This is all just my point of view after being in a situation somewhat similar to Cemar but in many ways unique as well but the central issue of a wife with an aversion to sexual intimacy.
I think you need an understanding that your wife is adverse to having sexual intimacy with you. Really understand it and wrap your head around it. She doesn't like to have her head in your crotch and french kissing you makes her feel gross, not good. Of course this is an awful feeling but you have to deal in reality. Think about this for a while, stop and really get it.
One of the biggest kicks in the gut is when I "got" this point. It made my wife physically uncomfortable to have me to even touch her breasts how could we ever have anything other than the most boring and dull sex if I couldn't even do that. A blow job? I understood that it actually was not going to happen because it was such an intimate act that I understood that I was living in some fantasy land.
Actually once I understood how bad the situation really was allot of what I was high desire for seemed so out of place with reality, that it seemed ridiculous.
Well when I understood that there was no way I could "turn" her on I had to give up on all the ways I used to try a "get" sex. This coincided with reading Dr.Glovers book No More Mr Nice Guy that has been mentioned here and Schnarch.
Understanding the reality of what was and not how I wanted things to be motivated me to change what I could that I had contributed to creating and sustaining a sex-starved marriage. Part of that what I had to do was fight for what I want on one hand and on the other was to work very hard at dealing with my own stuff.
Now the scary thing was that the relationship going down the path to sex starved followed the about the same path as a previous long term relationship. So I knew I had contributed either by choosing similar women, by helping create the situation or ????. I think the ???? was my "nice guyness".
Part of our solution was going to a professional sex-therapist and being committed to the process with any guarantee that it would work. We had allot of work with the therapist and I took the stance that my wife wasn't the patient and I was all ok I wanted to take on as much as I could but what I required from her was some effort. I'm not going to blow smoke up your ass and tell you it was easy, comfortable or smooth but it did work.
Unfortunately getting to the point where we both committed to work on the relationship took a few years and involved allot of fights and a six month separation from each other where we were both involved with other people and heading towards divorce.
I don't have an a magic right now, except accept as much responsibility over your own path and contributions to creating the situation you find your self in.
I am not sure exactly what you have solved. Did you solve the Fench Kissing problem? What was your contribution to the problem? Does your wife now like French Kissing, does she do it for HERSELF and not for you?
I explained on the other thread why I disliked french kissing.
This is one issue that I genuinly see you as making a mountain out of a molehill. If your wife likes kissing what is your big problem with this one thing?
Like I said in my other post I was put off by a couple of guys that french kissed but were really slobbery kissers and one caused the gagging reflex so it turned me off not on so why such a big deal? You seem to believe that this is a total barrier to real intimacy do not get that at all. I am happy to be intimate in every other way possible but my instincts if someone tries to french kiss me kick in and brings back unpleasant rather than pleasant memories.
shmagic
Its this intransigent attitude that gets peoples backs up and honestly if you come across like this to your wife can see why her desire levels of being unable to please you so why bother have kicked in.
