You are beyond me. You and your wife have a unique, bizarre, interesting, different (choose the adjective you like best) way of interacting. I never know what to expect when I read your post. Will you be nice and she'll be off the wall, or will she be nice and you'll be tempermental? All I can say is, I think you know how to handle her. It's like a dance you two do.
I think it's great that you are manipulating her back into Retrouvaille. There is a lot that you two can get out of repeating it. And this time, you need to continue the dialogues, and you need to go to all the post sessions. There is so much to get out of the post sessions. That's where they talk about rebuilding trust and forgiveness. The weekend doesn't go that far. It just teaches the dialogue technique. You guys need to do the whole thing, and then practice, practice, practice. Trust, forgiveness, commitment, love --- all decisions. All necessary simultaneously to support the relationship. Without any one of them, it's just a house of cards waiting to fall down.
Unfortunately, I have no advice. I have noticed my wife does the same thing when I drop off/pick up the kids and ignore her. Most of the time I take the kids in and sit and visit with her for a little while.
If I just drop the kids off and leave she'll call me and ask if anything's wrong. Or, sometimes she comes running out to the car before I can leave the driveway.
My wife is the one unable to quit bringing up the past too even though she accuses me of being the one who always throws the past in her face. I am saying, I know we can work on this. She likes to quote Dr. Phil - "The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior."
I wish I had some advice for you but if I did, I'd know what to do in my case too. I guess the only thing we can do is continue to show them that we have changed and hope that one day they see it and trust that it's for real.
By the way, that quote that she texted you is absolutely great. It couldn't be more true.
I can't agree with Sara enough -- the communication between you and your W isn't very mature IMO (I hate to say that, but I feel that same way about my communication with my W up until a few months ago). Much growth needs to be established within both of you if this R is going to work in the long run. Your W thinks she is perfect (which she obviously is not, esp in terms of fostering healthy relationships), and you feel justified hanging up on W without effectively communicating from your end. You both need to stay consistent with your behaviors and interactions with one another if you are to get anywhere. I hate that this comes across the way it does, but I just can't find a way to word it any more concretely. I don't believe that either of you are ready to get back into this M right now. Much growth needs to be understood and experienced on both ends. You are both going to have to take things very slowly if you both decide to reconcile, or I fear you will again find yourselves back in the same place you're in now. Please take this to heart and FWIW. I really want to see you make this reconciliation last.
One Wish...oh my!! what a seesaw and roller coaster you are on...you need to seize the control of the situation back into your side of things because between you and your W, you are the only one who is displaying rationality in your communication with each other...for those of you who don't know me, I am extremely blessed and fortunate to have had a humbling experience and by relying on spiritual means along with DBing and another valued advisor I was able to pull my marriage together early last year...my last thread is archived and is found at the following link and once you go to that link I think my thread previous to that is accessible from there also...I am not saying I am the model for what should be done in every situation because every situation is unique but maybe there is something in there someone can use...
One Wish is a dear friend who I last talked to about a year ago when it seemed he had pulled his M from the depths of D but I was saddenned to hear from him earlier this week about his latest setback...
First, I think One Wish has been way too accessible to his W and has engaged her in way too many half hour phone calls that she initiated...you need to go as dark as you can...I think your wife uses your daughter to have accessibility to you and it is unfortunate the way your little one is getting dragged into this...for your D's sake at the very least, go dark and dont be so chatty and easy to talk to when it comes to your W...when it is your time for your D, pick her up and leave...dont stick around and engage your wife in her latest musings of the day...keep it to a very minimum for now...I say this because I agree with you that your W is not ready to let go...I think she is in some ways immature and I mean this with no disrespect because I know from all the time we have spent talking about our situations that she is the woman you love...I know your wife is certainly a wonderful person because I know the depth of your love for her has virtually no bounds and your display of this by your loyalty is something anyone who has their values in order can admire without reservation...conversely, I know your love for her makes it hard to go dark with any degree of effectiveness...to what extent have you gone dark in the past and if you have what were the results?
My situation was a little different...the children in our lives were my W's and they were in their teens so visitation was not really something which was necessary...I became the King of Darkness...I think for one stretch of time, I neither saw nor heard from my W for about a month and this stretch of time included the Holiday Season into the New Year which has to be the hardest time for any feeling human being to be dark...when my W finally came out and contacted me I was not very prompt in getting back to her...and it turns when she did finally contact me, it was to ask for a D so I did, I think it is called in DB terms, the Last Resort tactic...I did this in combination with a tactic that is even more drastic and I know the folks here at DB do not really advocate but I felt it was the last shot and the biggest gamble of my life but I wasnt going to be regretful that I didnt try everything I could...I also cannot minimize what my Faith in God meant to me through that time...without my Faith in the Almighty I probably would have gone stark raving crazy and be dead for a multitude of reasons...I know One Wish has a strong spirituality when we last spoke last year and I am confident that continues to be so...
I dont think his situation is as drastic as mine and I dont think he has to resort to the "off the chart" maneuvers that I felt I was pressed to try but he definitely needs to go dark...you W definitely wants to try and work things out but she is obviously very scared...my notion is that she is scared not just from any hurt One Wish has caused but also maybe part of her immaturity (no disrespect to her!!) resulting in an overreaction on her part...I say this because it appears her unwillingness to look at herself and even her denial to acknowledge their might be issues with her is so far from being honest with herself that it is far from a realistic approach that a normal adult would take...I think she may have even cut off Retrouvaille the way she did because it was too hard for her to look at herself...there is something there within her which is preventing her from looking at herself deeply and honestly and it needs to be eradicated, exorcised or whatever from her!! She needs a jolt to her system and maybe going dark is what will trigger this from happenning...what else do you have to lose at this point...it might make her more jealous but you can count on her eventually sticking her nose in your business and wanting to be involved...as long as you engage her readily at her time at her disposal in communication you are giving her the power and things will remain status quo, i.e., a rollercoaster whipsaw that you will wish would stop...you have to subtly continue to manipulate her in a loving but firm way and sometimes that means cutting her off...when you go to pick up your D do it briefly with no more than the required pleasantries and chat about the where and whens regarding your D pick up and drop off...that is it!!! You will look your best and appear as happy as a pig in you know what and leave it at that...I also think this would be beneficial for your own self worth and avoiding feeling like a doormat that you mentioned...I know exactly what you are talking about because I was feeling the same way before I decided to go dark...you have a sense that your life is not your own and you are being spun by like a puppet without any control over your own being...this could never be a productive state for a human being to be in...at the very least you have to be in control of YOU before you can conduct the rest of your life in a healthy way...capece??
If you want to have some positive movement on this matter you have to have the power and if you have to seize the power then so be it...as long as your cause is noble and honorable you should stay the course and call the shots...no one should take this as sexist or any other ulterior motive or agenda because if a given situation had the woman as the rational one then I would say she would need to seize control of the situation...I dont think it would serve anyone for this comment to be denigrated into a gender discussion...the fact is that One Wish is much more saner and healthy than his wife and his only desire is to get his life back as a family to raise his D in a healthy and happy home...if that isnt a cause worth seizing then please tell me what is?????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hope I have been of some help...I dearly hope everyone has a resolution to their situations as soon as possible that best results in their long term happiness...God Bless!!
My Story http://www.divorcebusting.com/ubbthreads...=5&o=31&fpart=1
I pay my W no attention. I don’t say hello or anything. My W walks behind me and says hello, softly. I didn’t respond. I could barely hear her.
Ok, this wasn't really 'bad', but next time at lease turn and say 'Oh, Hello!' and then go about your business. Be sure to "SMILE AND WAVE"
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She starts yelling, etc. I hung on her. I am not going to allow her to continue to disrespect me. W calls me back and is still yelling, I hang up. I call her back and tell her that we need to talk civil and this is not acceptable. W is still all upset and said she is leaving and hung up the phone.
Now, I hope you told her that if she didn't stop yelling you WOULD hang up? Just 'hanging up' with no warning pisses people off, and is rude. Did you?
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I am driving and ask my W to start acting civil for the sake of D3 for now on. W then calls and starts talking about 10 years or our relationship on how I messed up, etc. blah, blah. I tell my W that we went through Retrouvaille and she agreed to forgive me and leave the past in the past. Told my W that I did mess up and I can’t do anything about the past. I apologized and that is it. I won’t do it again.
I think you're 'done with this topic with her. In the future just remind her that SHE is the one who will not let go of the past. And that as long as she holds on to it, there can be no future for HER. No discussion, just statements.
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W is crying profusely about our relationship saying that it has been up and down for 10 years. I then said that I messed up, two wrongs don’t make a right. You are now choosing a D like it is going to solve the problem. My W said that this is an emotional decision.
She's still replaying the past. I think that your statements of your responsibility are good. And I think that pointing out that a D is not going to fix anything is a good move.
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I get a text 5 minutes later from my W. “Life is emotion. People will forget what you say. People will forget what you do. People will always remember how you make them feel”.
ok, so think about a time when you were with her in the past where you felt really really good. Then next time you talk to her, mention this message and say:
"I thought about the message you sent me about people remembering how you make them feel, and when you and I were ____________ it felt really really good. I'll always remember that."
Quote:
W said that right now she could not accept me back due to the past. W said that she was always hoping that with more love or age, I would be the ideal husband. .......... I also was always criticized by my W. My W then said that she doesn’t have any bad qualities. I said yes, you do, you are not perfect. Always bringing up the past and threatening D didn’t make me feel secure in our relationship. I told my W that I never thought she would file, I felt secure.
"SHE could not accept YOU back...." Now, this is where you have to shine. Now that you have told her what she does that is not acceptable to you in a relationship, namely the criticizing and raging she does when she's upset, you need to let her know that you won't get back together with her until she ALSO addresses her issues. YOU'LL address YOURS, she will address HERS.
Just a firm 'I want to work on these things, and we're not going to be able to move forward with a new relationship unless we are on EQUAL footing. We BOTH need to grow.
I have been busy spending time with D3 and GAL that I haven't had time to respond. I have to admit that today I was thinking about things and I had to quickly change my train of thought and enjoy life and the positives in my life.
I picked up D3 on Friday from my W's office. D3 gets into the car and I am asking how her day was and what she ate for lunch. D3 was in a good mood. D3 then says, 'daddy, I have to tell you something that mommy said last time. She said that she loves you and she wants us to be a happy family'. I was so excited inside, but I chose to not pay too much attention to what D3 said. I don't know where D3 would get this statement from. I don't know if it is true or not.
Any way, we had a good time swimming and spending time with my sister and her family from out of town. I drop off D3 and leave quickly because I had plans on Saturday night. I was looking nice, I might add = )...
I get a call from my W right now. She said that she meant to ask me a question the other day. I said, what's up. W said that her extended family is having a reunion up north this weekend and she was hoping that D3 could spend the night on Wednesday night and she could take D3 up north for the weekend to set up their tent and camp. I told my W that this is a last minute request and to allow me some time to think about this because I have plans for myself and D3.
I thought about it for a little bit and made a decision to hit her with reality. I have been giving her WHATEVER she asks for and she continues to be spoiled. I called her back and told her that this is not going to work and I'll pick up D3 on Saturday. W suggested that D3 spend the night on Friday and she could take her up north on Saturday. I told my W that I already have plans to go to a baseball game on Friday. W starts complaining, what a baseball game is more important than being with D3. I responded no, I had made plans already because I knew that I wouldn't see D3 on Friday. W then hangs up.
Foolishly, I call back. D3 answers and says, 'Daddy, I want to go camping'. I responded with daddy wishes that he could go with you, but he can't. W grabs the phone and says, you are crazy and hangs up. I call back and tell my W that we don't need to fight over this and that this sucks, but this is what we have to do from here on out. W said that she gets 7 days and she is going to take her because she has only used 3 days taking her to Disneyland. I told my W that doc is just a draft, it is not official. W then told me that I (me) am taking D3 to Hawaii for a 7 day cruise and I said, yes I am. W got all upset and handed the phone to D3.
I restated to my W that I have always been trying to work with her and have been fair. W said that I have not. I told her that I didn't have a problem with D3 going to Disneyland or switching visit dates around so that she could take D3 to family birthday parties or functions.
To me it just seems that W is a spoiled brat. She is mad because she is not getting her way. She acts like this when she doesn't have control. I took control of what I want without letting her tell me what to do! I just don't get the whole attitude thing either. She called all friendly and nice. And then when I tell her no, she blows up. Then she tries the guilt trip thing on me because I am going to a baseball game? Come on? I DO have a life. She is always pointing out what is wrong with me to make me feel bad or feel guilty. I don't get her.
Any feedback?
OneWish's Story
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Ok, this wasn't really 'bad', but next time at lease turn and say 'Oh, Hello!' and then go about your business. Be sure to "SMILE AND WAVE"
I will continue to do this. Get in and get out quickly seems to get her thinking.
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Now, I hope you told her that if she didn't stop yelling you WOULD hang up? Just 'hanging up' with no warning pisses people off, and is rude. Did you?
I did not warn her. I will in the future. I seem to be the only one thinking rationally and trying to be civil, whereas she is not.
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I think you're 'done with this topic with her. In the future just remind her that SHE is the one who will not let go of the past. And that as long as she holds on to it, there can be no future for HER. No discussion, just statements.
This pushes buttons for her when I remind her that I can't change the past and she needs to let it go. She lives in the past and justifies her irrational actions by embellishing the past and telling people things about me.
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ok, so think about a time when you were with her in the past where you felt really really good. Then next time you talk to her, mention this message and say:
"I thought about the message you sent me about people remembering how you make them feel, and when you and I were ____________ it felt really really good. I'll always remember that."
I will mention this message to her. I will see her tomorrow and I am sure that she may still be upset. Maybe I can state this on Wednesday to her. I don't know what her problem is!
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SHE could not accept YOU back...." Now, this is where you have to shine. Now that you have told her what she does that is not acceptable to you in a relationship, namely the criticizing and raging she does when she's upset, you need to let her know that you won't get back together with her until she ALSO addresses her issues. YOU'LL address YOURS, she will address HERS.
She does need to address the tantrums and blaming. She does not argue fair. Always bringing up the past, etc. If we get the chance to address this, I will. Her problem is that she is not willing to try because she thinks I am the problem and she is perfect. She always said that she is the way she is because of me. I always pointed out to her that she is responsible for her own actions or reactions, NOT ME. She didn't like that statement.
OneWish's Story
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
One Wish...I think, except for a few minor hiccups that Frank D identified, you did quite well yesterday...you have to preserve yourself through this whole thing...you can't discount yourself and keep on being totally agreeable at the expense of sacrificing who you are and the minimal amount of respect you are due as a reasonable human being...when you totally sacrifice yourself and it gets totally unbalanced as it seems have gotten with your R, then you will begin to have a hard time respecting yourself...guess what happens then? well, if you can't respect yourself because you have been passive and subservient (basically a doormat) then how can you expect others to respect you?? without respect for yourself and from others, you cannot be attractive to anyone...I am not suggesting one has to be condescending or an a#&hole...just to hold your ground with dignity...I think you are starting to find that your wife has a multitude of issues and there is a maturity factor which is playing into this with her...she does sound spoiled and I think she has always had someone around to do for her...I dont think she developed a healthy and mature way of dealing with life's setbacks because she was probably both shielded from it and someone there to shoulder the burden for her...you might even be guilty of enabling this over the ten years you have been with her...no use crying over spilled milk, it is the cards you have to play now and I think you are starting to deal with it...remember always to be respectful to her because you can only hope to get respect if you give it...
Before my wife walked out on me the last time two summers ago, I had spent the two or three months before that being totally giving and subservient to her and the kids...I think it was me compensating for the past where I had controlling issues...the only problem was that the pendulum had swung so far opporsite to what it had been for most of our relationship that it was not effective and was ultimately destructive...in fact, I did not find myself attractive so how could I even think my wife found me attractive? it was only after I found that middle ground and started asserting myself in a respectful, objective and rational way did I get her attention and salvage my marriage...with all due respect to the DB crowd, one cannot hope to be totally submissive and get their spouse back...there has to be a combination of DBing, a more aggressive technique that is usually censored on here, a dose of good old Christian principles and last but not least, respect, mixed all together to make it work...one technique of those listed might be weighted a little bit more depending on the situation and the uniqueness of the people involved...look at the different approaches as an opportunity not a problem because taken in combination you cannot only say you tried everything but I believe you will have the best chance of success in getting your lives back in order...I truly do...
Last edited by TampaGuy1961; 07/16/0703:55 PM.
My Story http://www.divorcebusting.com/ubbthreads...=5&o=31&fpart=1
