CVA - Thread 2, Hold mode

[Nomopo]

CVA - thinking on your sitch a little more. Let me see if I can get some of my ideas out by responding to your and Sandi's posts.

Yes, in the beginning she was able to say "no" dont come over tonight and that mindset seemed to change recently after her getting back from outing w/ her BFF. We have no formal arrangement like you do so...

But expecting her to say no is putting pressure on her. It's like asking her to tell you to get out everyday. That's hard, and as Sandi said she probably doesn't want to hurt you. Now it is a fine line, because you need to be in your kids' lives, and if I were you I would put that first. Try to talk or see your kids every day, or almost every day. But don't use it as a way to see your wife. See or call them when she is not home (is that ever the case?). plan activities with them without her, if you can. Your kids may need some one on one time. Maybe you can do date nights with each of them. Then the non-invite to her won't be so obvious, and it would probably be real good for you and the kids.

Ok, this is where I am monitoring. The 1st 3 mos, NO WAY was she saying, "good to see you too" and yes I am initiating. I will back off and monitor.

Well, it's good to monitor, and I did this too in that it is tempting to be upbeat and positive, and then want to latch on to them responding in kind. But we really need to give them the opportunity to do, I think, is initiate.

I initiate, I will go back to "hi" and that is what I will get back. 17 yrs of exactly that. Unless I say something, I get (have always gotten) the minimum.

I know you don't think your W is up to the task of initiating. Go read Michele's DB strategy (Step 5) on Do Nothing. This may be something you have to do. And she may do nothing too for months. But it may be that she steps up to the task, and makes an affirmative move towards and for you down the road. Isn't this what you really need to get the M/R you want anyway?

[quote=CVA]Yep, asked me to leave the same day as the bomb. No choice, get out or I take the kids to Dallas and you get out while I am gone. No room for discussion. I guess my definition of "space" has been significantly impacted by being out of town "on purpose" multiple days mixed w/ wanting to see the kids. Again, she was able to and I ENCOURAGED HER to tell me NO if she is uncomfortable with something. I told her I am too dense to understand yes or a nod may mean no, just say NO. That seemed to work so I assume at this pt she is still comfortable saying NO to me but may be wrong.

The being out of town is a good way to give her space, but I think giving her more space while you're in town, and GALing, will be good for your sitch in multiple ways. Putting the burden on her to say no is just that - a burden (eg, pressure). She may still feel trapped, control, etc. Don't assume she is comfortable saying no - see if she will say "yes, I want you." Of course, have a long-term vision. This is not a short-term goal. This may not happen for months. Set some one- and two-week goals too.

[quote=CVA]She has actually told me to be around (asked). If I dont say anything, I risk not seeing the kids for a while given I have been going out of town a lot. Just trying to "strategically" position my being there when I am not out. I will think about this one. There is a fine line between controlling and trying to make things happen in a reverse sense a la DBing. Yes?

Yes, it is a fine line. And I crossed it too, I think, and need to pull back. I also would not hesitate at all to give your kids exactly what they need from their dad. If that requires you to be at athe house some, so be it. But just don't kid yourself about which is which. It is an easy trap to fall into because we DO want to be around our wives all the time, At least I do.

Ummm, not sure, we just talk about going and, you know, it just is assumed. Are you saying bow out if it assumed I will be there? If kids want me there, in the past I have said, "I will take them, you can go if you would like" with movies and dinners, she has always said "no, I want to go".

I'm not saying bow out. I'm saying if W makes plans with kids, and you get wind of it, don't invite yourself. If you and kids plan to go to the movies, don't hide it from W but don't go out of your way to invite her. And if it does come up, handle it like you suggested in tghe last sentence.

Maybe you and W should explore a sharing schedule with the kids (eg, alterbate weekends for primary responsibility (at least in the days). Just thinking out loud.

I guess the only comment after all those fantastic observations is this, my W is so "non assertive" with me, if I had done nothing in terms of some of things above, we would be absolutely nowhere. Hard to explain, but she may be the most non-assertive person (removed) I have ever known.

See my comments above on the Do Nothing strategy. I know it's hard, but you may have to give her the opportunity to rise to the occassion (and realize it likely will be months before she does). For you to really achieve the R you want and deserve, don't you think you need her to step up and affirmatively decide she wants you (as opposed to being a default because she can't make any decision)? (BTW, doesn't this non-assertiveness undercut your earlier strategy of relying on her to say "no, don't be around"?)

One question, fi my W never really made ANY efforts to initiate anything from just talking (telling me her hopes / fears) through to the obvious (sex) why would I ever think (after having been through this exact scenario 3 other times) that she would ever get the balls to do anything to move it forward now?

Similarly, she might not. Ever. But she might. Why not give her til say Jan. 1st to see if she does. If she is so non-assertive, do you think she will actually move things the other way (towards a D) between now and then? One other thought - recognize that your efforts to control her (by initiating greetings, back rubs, contact, etc.) are driven by your fear that she won't affirmatively choose you. Trying to get those emotional needs met/satisfied/placated need to give way to getting your R back to healthy (but that is scary stuff, I know).

Those are just my thoughts CVA. There is no one answer fits all sitches. You need to think on this and decide what is best for your goals. Take some time to analyze it. Talk to your DB coach, your C and your friends here.

Now, about Sandi's comments:

it is almost something inside of the W that she feels she has no control over. Her entire life feels out of control. She is consumed with unhappiness. She is mad at herself for being unhappy because she feels she must have made poor choices to be this unhappy in life. She is mad at her H for not making her happy...which of course, he can't, but she blames him anyway. She starts on a frantic search for happiness. So, because she is so unhappy in her marriage and in her home, she figures the first thing she has to do is escape. I chose that word on purpose, because she feels "trapped". She feels trapped by her own choices and by you and by life in general. She wants "out"!

Some of this rings true in my sitch (and the rest could be true as well). My W said she unhappy most of the time. My CIL said W was very angry at me. And W told my IC in their first meeting about 2.5 months ago that she felt trapped. That's when C started to tellme she thought a S was necessary to any chance of a reconciliation. She wanted out, and I had to let her go.

and also two books that I found extremely helpful that can be found on a website called womensinfidelity.com. You can purchase it and download it right then to read. It talks about a woman going through this stuff in 4 stages....it takes two books to tell it, but they are worth the money and the reading. It would be a world of wealth for you and your W...if she will read it. It helped me more than anything.

Sandi, are these books about MLC particularly?

May I please just tell you this....don't tell her you love her, don't tell her how much you miss her and the kids, don't offer to give her a back rub...or even to touch her in a half-hug. I'm not being mean sweetie, (btw, I can call you that because I'm an old woman...lol)but I tell you that because I know what she is feeling. And, the more you say those things and try to touch her...even in a "friendly" way...you are cutting off yourself..and you don't even realize it. Just because she may not say anything does not mean she is not rejecting the idea of it, be it your words or your touch. The sad thing is...she truly does not want to hurt you. I believe that with all my heart! That is why women don't say anything...or they will just nod their heads. If she did not care about you at all....she wouldn't hold back on how badly she hurt you! Men don't understand.......they simply do not understand how this is pressuring a woman. The ILY's, the sad looks, the lingering at the door, etc....it is putting guilt and pressure on the W. Maybe you will never see it as being that way, but remember men and women are vastly different in their thinking!

I can add to this that post-my awakening and pre-DBing I was determined to show W I understood that I had not made her feel loved. I did all sorts of things to prove my love, including being very affectionate. She never really shut me down, but she didn't exactly reciprocate. Later when we talked about it, she said yes it made her feel pressured, and trapped.

Okay, so you are already thinking, what can you do to change the situation? Only you can change. May I suggest that you get a life ASAP!

We all need to keep focusing on us. We so want to influence the ultimate outcome, and we can do so by changing us and doing little, subtle things in our interactions with our WASs, but we can't do as much as we'd like to think (and trying to do too much can hurt I think).

The sooner she thinks that you might just possibly be happy without her?.....the more chances you have of her coming back to you. Crazy? Yes, but then that is females for ya! Sweetie, I am 60 years old.....have to keep telling myself that to believe it....but I have not seen human nature change in this department. Human beings want what they can't have. Plain, but true. If she thought for one minute that she couldn't have you or that you did not want her....it would get her attention! Am I telling you to be dishonest? No! Am I telling you to have an affair with OW? NO, NO, NO!!! Am I telling you to move on without her? Hummmmmmm..........maybe. What I am saying, is GET A LIFE. Plan your days as though she were not a part of your life. Don't neglect the children, but go ahead and fill your days and nights up with "life" for goodness sake. Stop showing her how pitiful you are. Stop trying to make her feel sorry for you. Don't get mad at me now. I'm telling you straight. You go on like you are carefree and happy...even if your heart is breaking inside...don't you dare let her know it. You stay so good-looking that you put Brad Pit to shame! Well...do the best you can on that one. But, you get the idea, don't you. Don't get too obvious, but just look good everytime you think there is a chance she might see you. Have a good attitude....but don't get stupid with it and become a clown.

This is hard for me. Shwoing my W that I can/will be happy without her is probably what I have been most unsuccessful with so far. I think I need this to pick up. It's scary to have them think you have moved on, I guess because we're afraid they may say "Good. Finally." But I think if there is a chance of saving our marriages, this move will make it more likely to happen and also to happen more quickly.

Make plans with the kids that don't include her. She wants space.....by God, give it to her! Being under the same roof all the time is not giving her space! Listen to me sweetie, please. When a woman needs space badly enough...she will get it regardless of the price...in most cases. I was just lucky enough that someone got through to me in time.

This kind of sums it all up for both of us.

I know what you are thinking. You are worried about doing what I've said and then loosing her. What a gamble, huh? No, not really. What you've done so far....has it worked? You see, this is the only thing that will work.....if she is going to come back at all. But, I promise you one thing, you try to make her feel badly about what she's done to the M....you've lost her.[/quot]

Wise words, I think. Just like Michele says, and confirmed by multiple WAWs (sandi, WAW1978, Sunny, sad2be, and other WAWs whose words are posted in the Advice for Newcomers forums.

[quote=sandi2]If she wants to talk.....LISTEN TO HER...but that's all. Be her FRIEND....but that's all. BE NICE...but that's all. Never be sarcastic, rude, or judgmental......and especiall never be hateful. She probably saw the best side of you before she married you, didn't she? Well, I guess that is what I am telling you to do now...show her that side again. Only this time, for a while anyway, you will have to omit the romantic things, because she can't handle that. Oh she may accuse you of not being romantic enough when you were married, etc., but it's not the right time now. Cause her to "want" you again. You remember how to do that, don't you? In case you need a little tip...play "hard to get". But, also be prepared to be rejected when/if things don't go like you hope. Remember, go on "as if".

Here's our road map! Thanks again Sandi!

Hope it helps Buddy. Take this next week to think about it, and let's keep talking through it.

Nomopo