Do I buy a house? What about sex?

[Trixi]

MaxP,
I read thru a lot of your threads. I am so similar to you and my H is very similar to your W.

Yes, it's strange how these situations repeat themselves.

I have the hardest time organizing and so I have tons of "stuff" and boxes to sort thru. I figure that both H and my stuff is choking us, and if I have to move I won't want to move all this carp. And if I don't have to move (because he comes back) then it will be a much better house to move back to. Either way, it will be a win/win and hopefully clear some of my mental energies. My plan is to pick a room to work on every day and do *something* with it. It doesn't have to get done that day.

Sounds like a good plan. I too have a plan to sort through our stuff and get rid of the things I no longer need. A room a day would only last me four days though (if I completed the sort out)! What's in the garage would take longer though.

I SO wish it would only take 4 days for me. Heh, it takes 4 days for me to even contemplate sorting out certain rooms.

I have an issue with thinning hair and have felt like I must wear a wig (sucks to be 40 and in that position). When I didn't wear a wig, I was always afraid of the sun and rain. Now that I do, I am afraid of the wind. Either way, it hinders me being adventurous. This is why it actually *meant* something for me to say "sure" to going in the convertible. H has said that I should lose the wig ... snip ... Bottom line--I naeed to find a way to feel comfortable in my own skin/hair.

Yes. This sounds like a confidence issue and I cam completely understand why it would be distressing, particularly for a woman. As others have suggested perhaps there are people that can help. Do you know if there is a cause (ah - your thyroid I guess)? Finally, remember that wigs can be very sexy - a different look every day!

BTW I was diagnosed with a thyroid condition too (six weeks ago). Life sucks sometimes. In my case the best side affect was that I lost weight. I now feel fantastic but do worry about the future.

Thyroid issues for you, too. Weird. I don't know if you are a Get Smart fan, but I found it sorta funny that I am Agent 99 (ala Get Smart) and you are Max. (Of course, if you don't know the show Get Smart, then what I said won't make sense.)
Anyhoo.

After our 'talk' last night, I was doing very well; until I started obsessing about him being with someone. I still have very high hopes that he'll back and so I didn't want our fidelity to be stained. I need to get my PMA back up because I certainly don't want his final memory to be of me having a melt down.

Well, we are on the same page here. I worry that once she's gone I will have little idea as to what she is up to. Perhaps her view of separated = free to be unfaithful. After all she 'doesn't really love me' and is fulfilling her fantasy of living on her own again. This really sucks. I of course will be completely faithful and distressed.

Should I just ask her whether she plans to be faithful rather than making a request (as I have done)?

I think that is what I would do if I were you. OR, you can not address it and let whatever happens happen. We have no control over it anyway. And even if they *did* say they would remain faithful, there is no way of knowing if it is true. Depending on your frame of mind, you may not want to know the truth; ignorance is bliss. If he hadn't told me that he would jump on the chance if it presented itself, I would probably be fine just staying here and waiting this crisis out. BUT,he has said what he said and now the veil is being lifted from my eyes and I can see that he doesn't see any hope for us. If he did, he wouldn't so easily consider doing that.
(Anyone out there feel like correcting me? I am certainly open for an alternative opinion--please?)

Isn't it funny how anonymity makes me spill the beans (re hair) on something that I spend a great deal trying to hide?

Yes it is strange what you are prepared to say here but not to others. One of the things that I now know about myself is that I have difficult forming strong adult friendships where I share significant personal information. This is because I believe I have a trust issue with anyone knowing what is private to me because it makes me feel vulnerable. My wife looking to end our R hasn't helped that.

He again told me last night that he felt like I mothered him sometimes. I think I am almost TOO stable for him.

Ah, now in my case my W feels like she is my parent and has to look after me. This means we don't have an equal footing in the R which can cause all kinds of problems. So we often fall into a parent child interaction pattern. I pointed out to her that she doesn't need to look after me, I am a perfectly capable adult and am fed up of being treated like a child. It really, really annoys me. We are hopefully going to pursue this issue in counseling today.

Good luck at counseling today. I hope that you make some headway.

I keep reading that I should be trying to avoid (physical) separation; I wonder if there is anyone out there who has physically separated that it worked out for??

I read that too, but there is not a lot I can do about it. Last Monday my W announced she has signed the lease on an apartment and was moving out (this weekend coming). We had discussed this briefly at a very high level but it had gone quiet. I had know idea she had started looking. No consultation, nothing before being told it was all sorted. That hurt.

This whole thing hurts. If we choose to stand by our marriage, then they will continue to have the ultimate control and choices. It is something that we'll just have to come to terms with. Obviously, boundaries would make some sense to protect ourselves. Now is a time for our own personal growth. And, if and when the time is right, we may end up taking control of our own lives instead of letting them dictate our futures. I had *thought* that I was in a partnership. Apparently not.

[Trixi]

#1 rule: Dont move out. If he "wants out", let him leave.

Am I kidding myself to think he'll "straighten out"? To think that he'll realize what he is giving up? Are there really, REALLY people out there who DO get back together? and remain happy?

course there are! go read the "success stories" thread at the top of MLC forum and/or some others.

You're lucky... most of the success stories are about wives eventually winning back their husbands. Not nearly as many the other way around

Thank you Dom,R- I will go and do that.

[Trixi]

Heh, I guess I am talking to myself at this point; it's a good place to journal.

H is not home and it is nearly 10pm. *sigh* it's just not my business I guess. Soon enough he'll be moved out and then I will have no idea of his whereabouts. Then I can fantasize that he is sitting, all alone, contemplating the huge mistake he made. ha!

I am finding myself quite angry with him. How could anyone say "if I have meet someone and we have a connection, I'll have sex with them"??! What kind of bastard does that?! That is just how little he thinks of me and our marriage. He is basically saying, "I plan to screw whoever I want".

Why am I still wearing my ring? I don't actually have a husband anymore. For that matter, why am I waiting 6 months to see if he returns? And what if he returns with an STD? We have no children together (each of ours are grown) so there will no need for further contact down the road.

I am in a bad place right now. I have stupidly filled my head with the book Uncoupling. Do NOT read it if you want to have ANY HOPE of reconciliation. I feel like this is soooo futile. That I am about to waste 6 months of my life living in this house; paralyzed from moving on, while he goes and creates his own life. Footloose and fancy free.

I transferred the bulk of the proceeds from our rental house sale into an interest bearing acct in my name. I ended up crying at the desk of the poor fellow who was opening the acct.

Someone, please talk me down from the ledge.

[mkultra]

I think my H must have heard of that type of support, too. He wants the "friendly divorce" where the kids have a smooth transition into their two homes. Awful.

You are entering into the obsessive zone. That is a bad place to be but it shall pass. Now carry yourself carefully. Do not get overrun by your emotions/ hormones!!! This is very important. Stay cool. You will drive and push him further away if you lose control. No one would blame you if you called him and lambasted him for being such a MLC cliche but it will not get you what you want. It will give you temporary information. I also have thoughts like you. Remember he could think the same thing? How can he trust you? What if you got knocked up or met a richer stronger man? Of course we know most of that stuff will not happen and if it does cross that bridge when you get there. I used to call my H at 4AM wondering which was the worst place for him to be: jail, DUI arrest, hospital, passed out at work, with some OW, at breakfast with God knows who? Take your pick but he was pissed I bugged him so it was not worth worrying any more.

[jmegator]

I am such a newbie at this I probably have no major words of wisdom but this is what I know. I know that there is always hope and that people can change. It sounds like your H is really going through something right now. My counselor at church told me she got the feeling that the enemy was dragging my H out of our marriage by the heels. So I try not to take too much personally and remember that the enemy is really fighting hard to break our marriage up so if it is going to be saved I have to be stronger and fight harder. If I don't than who will? Not sure about your religious beliefs so this may not make sense for you. The only peace and comfort I get is from God and people He puts in my life to help me along the way. Without that I think I'd be a freaking basket case pretty much all the time!!!

[MaxP]

BTW I was diagnosed with a thyroid condition too (six weeks ago). Life sucks sometimes. In my case the best side affect was that I lost weight. I now feel fantastic but do worry about the future.

Thyroid issues for you, too. Weird. I don't know if you are a Get Smart fan, but I found it sorta funny that I am Agent 99 (ala Get Smart) and you are Max. (Of course, if you don't know the show Get Smart, then what I said won't make sense.)
Anyhoo.

Yes, I have an overactive thyroid (Grave's disease). It made me feel like everyone was very slow to do things. The good part is that I lost lots of weight and now feel great. The bad part is that my heart was pumping like a train at the oddest times, that was scary. Still, now I'm on the pills I feel much calmer (always wanted to say something like that). I actually feel fantastic. My C wondered how long this had been going on and whether it had had an affect on our R.

I don't know the show GetSmart. I'll look it up.

Should I just ask her whether she plans to be faithful rather than making a request (as I have done)?

I think that is what I would do if I were you. OR, you can not address it and let whatever happens happen. We have no control over it anyway. And even if they *did* say they would remain faithful, there is no way of knowing if it is true. Depending on your frame of mind, you may not want to know the truth; ignorance is bliss. If he hadn't told me that he would jump on the chance if it presented itself, I would probably be fine just staying here and waiting this crisis out. BUT,he has said what he said and now the veil is being lifted from my eyes and I can see that he doesn't see any hope for us. If he did, he wouldn't so easily consider doing that.
(Anyone out there feel like correcting me? I am certainly open for an alternative opinion--please?)

I did bring it up. Apparently she feels our R will be 'on hold' - i.e. not completely separated - and got the impression that this meant we were still in a relationship. Like you, I'm not sure I would like to know if she did sleep with someone. I know for certain she would not have a problem getting or finding someone to sleep with her and worry about all those single friends who may come out of the woodwork. She is very attractive (even if she doesn't believe that herself). She is the most elegant woman I know, and to use the word elegant is the highest compliment I can pay a woman.

Good luck at counseling today. I hope that you make some headway.

Sort of. My W still talks as if there is nothing to save and she wants out but the nuggets of info keep coming.

1. She has lost her identity. She has lost touch with some of parts of her and changed in other ways. We do too much together and she resents this (which is true).
2. She wants to do things on her own but feels compelled to ask me along - because I look upset if not asked. She then resents me being there and the time together is poisoned (I pick up on these vibes when we are out and panic).
3. She feels she has recreated the same pattern that existed in a previous relationship but with a very different man (me)*. This means she feels it is her that is the problem and perhaps she will keep doing this.

* The loss of identity. The feeling she needs to include the other spouse in things when she doesn't want to. The fact that her spouse ends up living their life through her.

I pointed out that she can be free to live her own life within our R, that through this crisis I have rediscovered my friends and my interests and want to pursue them. I am doing things that I never would have done before and am tackling these issues through my own counseling. That I am fed up of holding myself back. That I have realised I have complete faith and confidence in myself and that I can and will do anything I want. I am breaking free.

Knowing this is a big issue is enough to start to break it down. She seems quite fatalistic about this problem though. I guess I can only convince her through actions.

This whole thing hurts. If we choose to stand by our marriage, then they will continue to have the ultimate control and choices. It is something that we'll just have to come to terms with. Obviously, boundaries would make some sense to protect ourselves. Now is a time for our own personal growth. And, if and when the time is right, we may end up taking control of our own lives instead of letting them dictate our futures. I had *thought* that I was in a partnership. Apparently not.

Exactly. It is even clearer now that I need to take control of my life and regain my independence. An added benefit of this is that she will also regain her time and we can break this pattern.

Sorry, in reading this post I realise I have gone on a lot about my sitch. I hope that's ok. The message is clear though, we need to regain our independence and get out there and start living.

[Trixi]

Journaling
I have no idea when he actually got home last night; in fact, when I got up, I assumed that he wasn't here and it wasn't until I saw his shoes that I checked the garage for his car.

I went to wake him up (consists of me telling him what time it is) and he rolled over and said "I had to work really late last night; wake me back up at 10am". (I had forgotten that last night was Thursday when he has to work til all hours.)

I felt so relieved. I was relieved that he came home and that he wasn't out partying. That he wasn't at some woman's house that he "connected" with. I was happy that he provided me the info of where he was. I was thrilled to see his face.

There have been moments since this all "went down" that I think, I will be more than fine without him. I don't need his morose, mopey self around. I can move on and find someone that REALLY loves me. It's all his loss. But then, I realize (such as this morning) I am just fooling myself. I am not really in that mental space yet. I wish I were sufficiently detached, but I'm not.

I finally finished the book Uncoupling (I had just a couple more chapters to go last night when I posted) and the author does talk about reconciliation (thank goodness!). Basically, she says what we all know -if both people grow and change during this time, then there is a good chance the reconcilation can work. If the work hasn't been done, old patterns will emerge and there will be another split.

I am not looking forward to the weekend. Now that I no longer make dinner for him, there is no reason for him to come home. And given that last Saturday he stayed gone all night; ....well, I guess the one thing I can hope is that he gets worn out from partying.

Too bad there is no magic pill for detaching.

Mkultra- thanks for the advice. I will do my best to leave him be.
jmegator-I understand what you are talking about. I pray for my H all the time.

I pointed out that she can be free to live her own life within our R, that through this crisis I have rediscovered my friends and my interests and want to pursue them. I am doing things that I never would have done before and am tackling these issues through my own counseling. That I am fed up of holding myself back. That I have realised I have complete faith and confidence in myself and that I can and will do anything I want. I am breaking free.

MaxP-
I can sooooo totally relate to this statement. I am needing to find the place where what growth I do is not primarily to "impress" my H. I do not want to make these changes and then abandon them if my H doesn't come back. Actually, anything I do wont be *primarily* to impress him; BUT he does come to mind when I think of new adventures. ie "J would be so surprised if I did XYZ. J would be happy if I started __fill in the blank__" Naturally I follow the thought with how I would get to learn something new, etc, but he is still influencing my decisions and that sort of bugs me.

Maybe someone has sage advice for me on this one:
He had mentioned that he felt like he could pretty much get away with anything and I would always be here because I love him so much. I think that he has complete confidence that he can go out, have his freedom and party it up and then if he changes his mind, I'll just be waiting for him. (Not his fault he thinks that, I gave him that impression.) When I was saying to him "Look, I agree you need your freedom so that you can choose me. And I am confident you are going to be back." and then I added something to the effect of "if I'm still available" and he sorta chuckled and shook his head. When I asked what was so funny he said "just that you said that." I think he took what I said as sabre rattling and nothing more. I believe that as long as I continue to wear my ring, I am also promoting that impression. I do NOT want to force us into getting a divorce right this second, just so he can go and have sex with women. And, as much as it hurts, I think that it might have to happen for him to work thru his part of the process. He is taking this separation to mean we are not together. (Kinda reminds me of Ross and Rachel on friends "We were on a BREAK") If he is taking it to mean we aren't together, shouldn't I exhibit the same thing?

I am irritated that he can say such things to me and then feel so sure that I would be waiting for him. Bottom line-how do I stand by the marriage without having him be so flipping cocky? Is there a way to do that?

[Dom R]

I do NOT want to force us into getting a divorce right this second, just so he can go and have sex with women.

i just noticed this bit. i have two comments on it.

1. you dont "force" him to do anything in that reguard. you dont control whether he files divorce or not. That is his choice

2. if you condone having sex while you two are still married.. you cheapen the value of marriage.

You can state your opposition to something, without anyone doing any 'forcing'.

If he is hell-bent on having sex with someone else.. and he decides to get a divorce to do it.. I say "be glad!"
In one way that shows that he still values the sanctity of marriage.
if he does it.. and then later decides it was a mistake.. you will then not have to deal with the worry of, "well, we're 'together' again, but how do i know he wont cheat on me?"

you will KNOW.. because you'll know he has shown he would not betray marriage like that.

There is good to be found even in "bad" situations, sometimes.


other comment:

Now that I no longer make dinner for him, there is no reason for him to come home

I think the DB way is, "go with what works, and stop what doesnt".

Is this change a long-term positive one, or a negative one?
If it's a bad one in your eyes, then maybe you could reverse what you chose, and start making dinner for him again, if he is interested.

[Dom R]

Maybe offer an extra-special dinner to pull him back to you for this weekend

[Trixi]

I do NOT want to force us into getting a divorce right this second, just so he can go and have sex with women.

i just noticed this bit. i have two comments on it.

1. you dont "force" him to do anything in that reguard. you dont control whether he files divorce or not. That is his choice

2. if you condone having sex while you two are still married.. you cheapen the value of marriage.

You can state your opposition to something, without anyone doing any 'forcing'.

If he is hell-bent on having sex with someone else.. and he decides to get a divorce to do it.. I say "be glad!"
In one way that shows that he still values the sanctity of marriage.
if he does it.. and then later decides it was a mistake.. you will then not have to deal with the worry of, "well, we're 'together' again, but how do i know he wont cheat on me?"

you will KNOW.. because you'll know he has shown he would not betray marriage like that.

There is good to be found even in "bad" situations, sometimes.

Ermmm...I am really confused by what you have said.
He told me that if *I* really have a problem with the idea of him having sex, then *I* will have to be the one to initiate a divorce. "You need to do what you need to do."

He told me that he wanted to have no rules regarding sex since his whole goal was to know what it is like to be free. And any rules mean he isn't free.

other comment:

Now that I no longer make dinner for him, there is no reason for him to come home

I think the DB way is, "go with what works, and stop what doesnt".

Is this change a long-term positive one, or a negative one?
If it's a bad one in your eyes, then maybe you could reverse what you chose, and start making dinner for him again, if he is interested.

Part of my wifely duties was to make him nice dinners. In his eyes, we aren't together. Therefore, I don't think he should get the benefit of my cooking. Besides, it was getting a little bit awkward.

He is no longer letting me know when he'll be home or not, so it's not practical to be concerned with his eating. I don't think the cooking was having any positive impact.