Nice guy, giver or taker, talking each other’s 5LL, what ever one will labels it, something is off.
Implied in your comments seems to be the idea that the nice guy is defined as a giver. Don’t you know that taking is part of being nice? It allows the other person to give, thus giving him/her the satisfaction of giving. If the nice guy does all the giving, he is not being so nice after all because he is robbing the spouse of that important feeling of giving, which also has some aspects of power to it. So while giving may seem like forgoing all power to the spouse, it could really be the opposite.
Maybe BB feels powerless by you always beating her to being the giver. Maybe you could be nice to her in a different way be letting her give and you being the taker. Sounds scary, huh?
She can hold the relationship hostage, but after his growth, she won't be able to hold him or his happiness hostage. He may or may not remain with her for the kids' sake, but he won't need her or any woman to be happy.
This may be true in theory and in the long run, but try going face to face with the reality of ending your marriage and family. It is not a pleasant outcome. Everyone can piece their life back together and maybe end up happier than before, but my position is to save the marriage.
Mine too. Being a happy, healthy, and attractive person is a good way to do that; it has the advantage of possibly enticing the other person to want to work with you to save the marriage.
Originally Posted By: Cobra
Thinking that you need to keep forging ahead and become a better person, to keep growing for you own sake is not really the objective IMO, contrary to what many counselors like to propose. If the marriage can make you happy but you may even need to go backward in your growth, who is to say that is wrong? What is the necessary level of growth to be happy? There are plenty of couples out there who are dysfunctional from our understanding, yet seem to be happy. It works for them. There is always risk is shaking up the status quo.
And there's risk in letting the status quo fester. There's a large number of people on this site who thought that their spouse was happy with the status quo and were quite surprised to find out (a) they weren't happy and (b) they aren't interested in any proposed solution other than splitting up.
Originally Posted By: Cobra
I also don’t buy into the notion that a person must be happy with his/herself before s/he can be happy in a relationship.
The person not being happy with himself is going to interfere greatly with his partner's enjoyment of the relationship. He can end up being temporarily happy within the relationship.
Originally Posted By: Cobra
This idea of breaking all codependency traits and becoming self reliant is a hard path for many people. Most of us want companionship and can never truly feel happy or fulfilled alone. So I see nothing wrong with wanting another person or in weighing the consequences of that codependency against individual happiness. I do believe that growth is necessary in FOO type issues that worm their way through to destroying a marriage. That growth is important because it directly impacts the spouse.
Clearly we're happier with a partner than alone. But the difference is between seeing a split as an unfathomable disaster and seeing a split as a painful occasion that can be endured with happy times alone or with a new partner waiting on the other side.
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
I also don't buy into the notion that a person must be happy with his/herself before s/he can be happy in a relationship.
Interesting. I won't bother "arguing" the point if it works for you. It's just something I haven't seen and do not feel myself. So I wouldn't be able to support that concept for anyone else.
I assume that is true for you then? How many other people have you seen this true for?
Also would you (and Cemar) believe me if I told you that when my XH and I first separated and I was incredibly sad about the separation and possible ending of our marriage I would still have characterized myself as "happy" on many levels. Yes of course I would have been MUCH happier if my XH had come home but it doesn't make sense to me to base all my happiness on things external to me and beyond my control.
So I guess much of it just comes down to personal philosophy and finding something that works for you. So if your personal philosophy is WORKING for YOU, far be it from me to insist it does not work. I will just insist that my philosophy works for me and others I know.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
My point about Nice guy, giver or taker, talking each other’s 5LL, what ever one will labels it was, some of these terms have over lapping traits.
Maybe I am like Cac and the boundary vs. demands issues when the theme of the posts were "I will not live in a sexless M." Some saw that as a boundary, some said it was similar to, “sex has to happen or the traditional M is over”-threat implied?
I want to know more about the up/down side of being a NG but right now I am in a low spot because I don't think much will change in our R.
I see a series of patterns, fix A then B becomes a problem. I see one addiction/problem being swapped for another addiction/problem problem.
Like Lil said in one of her posts. Her bf had a series of problems to over come. Then Lil said/implied "when is it going to be her turn?" That is where I am now.
On a positive note, I was going to check out the NG ligature at the library but they don't have any NG books or tapes.
I am kind of "Booked out" right now. Maybe reading "Technical analysis explained / the successful investor's guide to spotting investment trends and turning points " by Martin J. Pring, 641 p: 4th ed.
Mine too. Being a happy, healthy, and attractive person is a good way to do that; it has the advantage of possibly enticing the other person to want to work with you to save the marriage.
You miss my point. With CeMar, I am making the assumption that his wife will NOT want to work on the marriage because doing so is scary for her. This is a new thought for me regarding CeMar, only because he recently divulged more about his W. It paints a completely different picture of CeMar’s sitch, IMO.
The person not being happy with himself is going to interfere greatly with his partner's enjoyment of the relationship. He can end up being temporarily happy within the relationship.
Do you really think CeMar’s wife is happy? She may think so in her own way of seeing the world, but if she has abuse issues, it could be she is constantly living in fear of being engulfed in some way. Yet she still wants companionship, as do all people, so she likes having CeMar in the room. He gives her a sense of safety and protection. But with abuse (say she was raped as a child) too much intimacy brings out the fears and makes her pull away. This is exactly what Corri has been struggling with.
But the difference is between seeing a split as an unfathomable disaster and seeing a split as a painful occasion that can be endured with happy times alone or with a new partner waiting on the other side.
I don’t anyone’s objective here is to endure happy times alone, as happy as being alone will allow you to be. I also think waiting with the idea of having a new partner is not committing to the marriage and destined for failure. If you have one foot out the door, you might as well leave now.
Fearless,
Interesting. I won't bother "arguing" the point if it works for you. It's just something I haven't seen and do not feel myself. So I wouldn't be able to support that concept for anyone else.
I don’t want my comment to sound wrong. I know it is important not to depend too much on another for your own happiness, or at least to an “unhealthy” extent, whatever that is. But isn’t that a form of self defense, to protect against the possibility that another person may leave and hurt you? If that other person is the perfect match and will never leave you, is there any reason to fear losing this “source” of happiness? So is cutting dependency on another really the path to greater self happiness or to self protection?
Because the work each of us can do on ourselves is almost limitless, I do not know where you draw the line on how much self work is required before you can be happy. If you are happy with another person, then you’re happy. If you’re unhappy alone, then don’t be alone. Just be healthy enough to find and hang on to someone who isn’t going to leave you.
I’ve known people who were happy alone, or thought they were. But after meeting their “soul mate” their happiness jumps to another level. So who are we kidding? I guess my point in all of this is that CeMar does need to work on himself, but I also think he needs to find a way to pull his wife to a new level, if he is ever going to be truly happy. She needs to step up and his burden is to find a way to cause her to do this, whatever form of cage rattling that may involve.
CeMar,
Care to divulge more about your wife’s issues? Why is she so uncomfortable with intimacy? What happened to her? How about you?
