These women are by and large much healthier than your wife, IMO. So your wife will not be able to relate to what is being said here, it is on a level higher than where she is now. Your wife will not be able to switch over to a healthy form of relationship with you. She will have to grow and it will be painful for her and for you. So don't expect to wake up and find an enlightened, intimate and functional wife all of a sudden.
I absolutely agree. In fact my "approach" would be to not worry about his wife's issues for awhile but for Cemar to take care of himself because besides being "much healthier" than Cemar's wife I would also believe that I am much "healthier" than Cemar. (I really hate putting it that way because I have so many other issues I am working on personally so in the end who's to say who is REALLY healthier)
This is where I think you and I somewhat disagree. I believe the first step for people who have issues with their relationship is to stop and look at themselves FIRST. They need to look at what THEY need to do and want to be FOR THEMSELVES. IF they do this work for their spouse, then they are right back into a covert agreement "If I make myself a better person, then my spouse will love me the way I want to be loved." Then they will be disappointed if their spouse doesn't give them the exact reaction they want. BUT if they make these changes for themselves, then they are HAPPY and their spouse is free to react however they want to react. And even if it is not exactly what they expected or wanted, their happiness with themselves is not diminished. And then this lack of resentment will be a DIFFERENT interaction for the relationship. As I said before, people are not attracted to people that resent them.
Also I think you are correct in pointing out that Cemar's wife may have some painful growing to do. What about Cemar's behavior right now makes him a worthwhile prize for her to be willing to go through the possible pain she might need to face?
Just my thoughts...
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Why do kids learn to follow rules and morals? Because they learn to fear the consequences of not doing the right thing.
Is this true? I don't overtly feel fear and I don't remember my parents using fear. I follow rules in order to do the right thing. Of course I feel okay with breaking rules that are "wrong" or don't follow my morals. And yes I can accept the consequences for not following those "rules."
Those kids who realize they can accept the consequences can then go on to do whatever they want. They become the bullies and troublemakers.
What's your definition of a trouble maker? Our Founding Fathers were "troublemakers", the civil rights movement was full of "trouble makers" and I know Gandhi was considered quite a troublemaker. I can be a bit headstrong (I know you're shocked!!). I can do my own thing even when it's against the rules. Were the people who went along with the Nazi movement right or wrong? They were just following the "rules?"
I know this is a WHOLE other topic!!
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
I agree that people need to look at themselves first. Taking on their own growth will usually change the dynamics of a relationship, even if the spouse does not want to change, but not always. We have been pounding on CeMar to make self improvements, and I think he has slowly grown over the years, though he could do a lot more, IMO. But it can also be that he has reached a point where his further growth must be matched by similar growth in his W or he will need to face a choice in either holding at his present level (or even going backward) or continuing to grow in a new relationship with someone else. For one person to keep growing while the other does not will strain a relationship to the breaking point. Perhaps CeMar is afraid of forcing conditions to such a breaking point.
He seems to know that if he does what so many people advise here, he will only become more unhappy. Yet he does not want to leave the marriage (hiding behind religious reasons). So he is stuck. Either he can grow and get D, or stop his growth and accept things as they are, or get his W to grow.
As for my definition of a bully or troublemaker with regard to marriages, I think CeMar’s wife qualifies for that. She is placing her safe haven cocoon over her consideration for CeMar and the marriage. The only question that seems to plague all of us is whether CeMar is covertly doing the same to her.
He seems to know that if he does what so many people advise here, he will only become more unhappy.
What does this mean? Is this what he believes or what you believe or what you believe he believes??
Either he can grow and get D, or stop his growth and accept things as they are, or get his W to grow.
This is NOT true. How can we say for sure WHAT will happen if Cemar grows? The only thing GUARANTEED by his growth is that Cemar will be a better person. There is no guarantee is wife or relationship will change at all. However if Cemar DOES NOT grow, it is guaranteed his wife and relationship will not change AND he won't be a better person. So why wouldn't he give change a try? Unless he prefers just being unhappy and just wishing his wife would change.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
He seems to know that if he does what so many people advise here, he will only become more unhappy.
What does this mean? Is this what he believes or what you believe or what you believe he believes??
What I mean is that if CeMar keeps trying to push the relationship forward without consequences for her inaction, and she does not change, he will be more unhappy. If CeMar’s wife has some major intimacy issues, then I think his setting boundaries and working on himself will not be enough to move the marriage forward. Those things are a prerequisite for the M once she starts to grow, but I don’t think they are enough to cause her to grow. So he will be and has been frustrated.
This is NOT true. How can we say for sure WHAT will happen if Cemar grows? The only thing GUARANTEED by his growth is that Cemar will be a better person.
Sure CeMar can grow into a better person, but that still will not make him happy nor assure success with his marriage. There is a chance it could have some positive impact, but I think that with a spouse who has abuse issues, there is only so much that can be done from a passive position. The spouse MUST get into counseling and address the trauma. Otherwise the spouse can hold the relationship hostage, which seems to be what has been going on, based on CeMar's latest info about his wife.
Sure CeMar can grow into a better person, but that still will not make him happy nor assure success with his marriage.
If he grows into a better person, he can't help but end up happier regardless of whether it produces success in his marriage.
Originally Posted By: Cobra
Otherwise the spouse can hold the relationship hostage, which seems to be what has been going on, based on CeMar's latest info about his wife.
She can hold the relationship hostage, but after his growth, she won't be able to hold him or his happiness hostage. He may or may not remain with her for the kids' sake, but he won't need her or any woman to be happy.
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
#1129402 - 07/11/07 07:28 AM Re: Hey, Cemar - But I'm a Nice Guy! [Re: mrs.cac4] Fearless If you ever watch women when they get together, they don't "do", they "talk". Talking tends to be very emotion oriented, they are either doing something emotional like expressing their feelings, or they are talking about expressing their emotions. They ARE directly getting in touch with their emotions.
And men are charged with doing.
I remember post of men that had WAW's and the one thing that stands out in my mind was almost everyone that was giving advice, told the LBH "to do" and not talk.
So women need men to speak to them WITH WORDS! We all know that better communication is needed in marriage, but for women, this means the men must speak to her in HER language, and that is through words, not only action. And the PRIMARY means of doing this is through talking and showing emotion, and it will ALWAYS be that way.
I guess I am still lost on the words vs actions. I know words and actions are needed to sustain a R.
I find myself doing the words thing but if I give my opinion to BB and it isn't congruent with her opinion, I can sense the disconnect. This is why I think it might be better for some men to not say too much sometimes.
Hairdog #1129765 - 07/11/07 11:32 AM Re: Hey, Cemar - But I'm a Nice Guy! [Re: Corri] She (Ms. HD)is, however, not one of my "safe persons." I identified three safe persons and, beside my therapist, I intend to talk to one of my long-time friends, and reserve the third spot for either this forum, or perhaps the online forum at Glover's website. HD, how did you determine who was safe? I would be concerned about burdening/disclosing too much/sound like I was dumping on some of my friends.
Corri #1130101 - 07/11/07 03:02 PM Re: Hey, Cemar - But I'm a Nice Guy! [Re: cemar2] The Lord helps those who help themselves. I think that is practical advice rather than scriptural. To me it means do some of your own work, don’t wait for others to do work for you. To me it boils down to actions, not words
Fearless #1130175 - 07/11/07 04:04 PM Re: Hey, Cemar - But I'm a Nice Guy! [Re: cemar2] Also let me ask these questions: 1) Are BOTH men's and women's needs equally important in a relationship? YES [/b]2) For a marriage to be on solid ground BOTH partners need to be getting their needs met and meeting the others needs? [/b] OH, both meeting the others needs? One needs very little and the other has a long list. Then what? I do agree, both spouse should have the basic needs met. 3) Do you believe that these needs need to be completely and fully met for each other at ALL times? NO, so that sort of answers my question on point #3 4) Do you know what your wife's communication needs are? If so, how do you know her needs – did she tell you or have you assumed? Why stop at communication needs? BB thinks she needs lots of things I don’t see as needs. We have had discussion after discussion about her needs and my needs. My sexual needs, she tells me she will never get there and I have to be satisfied with what she can put in a donation basket.
Mrs. Nop #1130194 - 07/11/07 04:24 PM Re: Hey, Cemar - But I'm a Nice Guy! [Re: stu] "I'll go along with her on this and next time she'll see what a good guy I was and will _____ for me." But that's not going to even register on her radar. Meek requests, pouting, whining, sighing deeply from the other room - will probably just irritate her. It will certainly not produce a sudden desire in her to do what you want. She isn't operating from your standard of "the right thing to do".
You can see how this can go horribly wrong.
She isn't operating from your standard of "the right thing to do".
Good description of what I think and what happens.
Fearless #1130742 - Yesterday at 06:27 AM Re: Hey, Cemar - But I'm a Nice Guy! [Re: DIY] this very same woman has been asking this man to fix the creaking door in their house. He does not because he does not think it is important, is busy, etc. BTDT. I didn’t consider BB 5LL priorities.
Corri #1130874 - Yesterday at 08:39 AM Re: Hey, Cemar - But I'm a Nice Guy! [Re: fearless] in one way, she (~Mrs Cemar) sounds a bit like Lou's wife And Mrs. Choc. BB likes to be chased, paid attention to, be the center of attraction, but in comes the 60/40 or 70/30 rule fearless had in one of her posts. I feel like I do the 70/80 part to to have my 30/20 needs met. (By the way an interesting article Raven sent me from MSN has married couples telling the secret to good marriages. One man married happily for 42 years said that he and his wife were told when they got married that EACH should give 60% and take 40%.
Nice guy, giver or taker, talking each other’s 5LL, what ever one will labels it, something is off.
Chrom #1130835 - Yesterday at 08:10 AM Re: Hey, Cemar - But I'm a Nice Guy! [Re: fearless] "just take care of him every now and then and he'll leave you alone" Add in all guys want is warm Pu$$y, bigger boobs, and all those other convenient scape-goats, I want to know how to get past all of that extra fog/garbage?
Hairdog Re: Hey, Cemar - But I'm a Nice Guy! [Re: MrsNOP] The funny thing is, the agreement doesn't exist in the mind of the significant other (SO), or, as you said, "that's not going to even register on her radar." Meanwhile, the resentment builds in the NG because the SO is breaking the covert contract. Very good post, the whole thing.
I am guilty of these covert contracts as well. I have done many of the same things. I wish my library had the book and audio materials.
Cemar2 #1131828 - Yesterday at 09:27 PM Re: Hey, Cemar - But I'm a Nice Guy! [Re: cac4] cac4:
supposedly most men would just be happy with a willing and able partner That is one very dangerous comment, it is why explaining a SSM is so very hard. This implies that sex is just a physical act, that no bonding or emotional connections are being made. If this is true, then the husband should be able to have sex with ANYONE that is willing, and the wife should actually ENCOURAGE this, afterall, it is just an activity between two people. Cemar2, you are making sense here.
Mojo #1131896 - Yesterday at 10:32 PM Re: Hey, Cemar - But I'm a Nice Guy! [Re: hairdog] So when a HDW like me interacts with a "nice guy" what frequently happens is I convert a "nice guy" into a low-rent "bad boy" and it is not a pretty thing to behold. That is why I say that I would rather be with a guy who will initially play me straight-up monkey If I only knew how and if BB also liked that approach, I had the skills to carry it out, not only for me but for other men and women.
MoJo’s new book? Monkey 101? :0
Fearless #1132035 - Today at 06:28 AM Re: Hey, Cemar - But I'm a Nice Guy! [Re: cemar2] I also don't believe in having friendships/relationships with "overt" contracts. That's why I did not care for Lou's use of the idea of a "raincheck" for sex. It's a personal thing but I just don't like the idea of reducing sex to something that I "owe" my partner. Fearless, my idea of rainchecks???? I believe someone else was talking about if a spouse was frequently turned down/put off, the lower drive spouse might offer a different time when sex was better for them.
What I have been working with is a W that thinks/says guys want sex 3X a day, men are pigs, men create 98% of the evil things to happen, most guys just want a warm pu$$y, after a certain age sex should be over, sex isn’t necessary and is unpleasant if the temperature is above 80f or below 30f outside. In other words, no sex unless most things are perfect physically and emotionally, which leaves a couple of months a year.
Mojo #1132048 - Today at 06:44 AM Re: Hey, Cemar - But I'm a Nice Guy! [Re: cemar2] My point is that the man who acts nice in order to get sex sometimes won't act nice if he can get sex without the nice behavior. The man who knows that nice behavior isn't what will get him really hot sex is free to act nice for other reasons. So a woman as HD as me has to have boundaries that basically honestly state "Nice behavior isn't what turns me on but not-nice behavior will send me out of f*cking distance from you." Sounds appropriate for a HD woman. What works for a LD woman?
Guess I have to change the NG traits I have and see what happens.
He may or may not remain with her for the kids' sake, but he won't need her or any woman to be happy. How, I would LOVE to find this. I would be there in a second. Are you saying that a man without a lover can be as happy as a man with a lover?
She can hold the relationship hostage, but after his growth, she won't be able to hold him or his happiness hostage. He may or may not remain with her for the kids' sake, but he won't need her or any woman to be happy.
This may be true in theory and in the long run, but try going face to face with the reality of ending your marriage and family. It is not a pleasant outcome. Everyone can piece their life back together and maybe end up happier than before, but my position is to save the marriage.
Thinking that you need to keep forging ahead and become a better person, to keep growing for you own sake is not really the objective IMO, contrary to what many counselors like to propose. If the marriage can make you happy but you may even need to go backward in your growth, who is to say that is wrong? What is the necessary level of growth to be happy? There are plenty of couples out there who are dysfunctional from our understanding, yet seem to be happy. It works for them. There is always risk is shaking up the status quo.
I also don’t buy into the notion that a person must be happy with his/herself before s/he can be happy in a relationship. This idea of breaking all codependency traits and becoming self reliant is a hard path for many people. Most of us want companionship and can never truly feel happy or fulfilled alone. So I see nothing wrong with wanting another person or in weighing the consequences of that codependency against individual happiness. I do believe that growth is necessary in FOO type issues that worm their way through to destroying a marriage. That growth is important because it directly impacts the spouse.
