Don't worry. I am still thinking about the boundry thing you brought up, I am not ignoring it. Just not sure yet what I am going to do with it.
As for the moratorium, my wife never blatantly cuts me off. Since the conception of my last child (3rd) 12 years ago, ALL sex has been initiated by me. SHe rejects it probably 80-90% of the time. But ALL physical contact between the 2 of us is ALWAYS started by me. So in other words, she has not commuicated with me in over 12 years.
Oh, just another thing, the last time SHE pursued me for sex was to conceive that last child, and since then, nothing.
I still haven't received the book, but I've listened to almost half of it. It hits so close to home, that, frankly, it hurts sometimes.
Quote:
Nice Guys often keep "sacrificing" in a relationship because they think "it's the right thing to do". With the unspoken belief that doing so will facilitate their spouse choosing to "do the right thing".
This "unspoken belief" is what Glover refers to as the "covert contract." You kind of hit on an example of it when you said, "I'll go along with her on this and next time she'll see what a good guy I was and will _____ for me."
Glover takes it a step farther, and, as a "recovering nice guy", does a better job of explaining what is going on in my head during the formation of a covert contract. Paraphrasing:
Quote:
I will do X for you, if you will do Y for me. We will both act as if this agreement doesn't exist.
The funny thing is, the agreement doesn't exist in the mind of the significant other (SO), or, as you said, "that's not going to even register on her radar." Meanwhile, the resentment builds in the NG because the SO is breaking the covert contract.
I am so very guilty of this. Even very early on in the relationship, I was doing this. I remember when she noticed 9 huge trees that died in our backyard, about three weeks before our wedding, which was going to take place in that very space. Two neighbors and I spent two of those weekends cutting down (and cutting up) those trees in one of the most frenzied, physically demanding, manly activities in which I have ever participated.
Meanwhile, in my head, the contract was drafted and signed: If I cut down the trees and get the backyard beautiful for her, she will reward my manly behavior with lots of great sex. (And remember, the frequency of our SL had already begun tapering off, much to my dismay.)
Both weekends, I would stop cutting at about 6pm, come inside, take a shower, and await my bargained-for exchange. Of course, it never came, because: 1. It was never "bargained-for", 2. She had no idea that she was a part of the covert contract, 3. I never told her about it, (and I accuse HER of expecting me to read her mind), 4. She had pre-wedding stuff of her own that was occupying her thoughts.
Sure, she thanked me and likely said something about how great it looked. She may have even bragged to her friends/coworkers about how hard I had worked to make the backyard look great. But that wasn't even registering -- I wanted to ML!
This is also an example of one of the other sins of a NG: caretaking. Caretaking is different from caring. Caring is doing thoughtful things for another with no strings attached. Caretaking is an immature, indirect attempt on behalf of the NG to get his needs met. Focusing on another's needs, in order to feel good about yourself. "See what a NG I am? I busted my ass to do this for my SO."
And, to wrap it all up, Glover talks about "The Victim Triangle." Again, I am paraphrasing:
Quote:
1. NG gives to others (hoping to get something in return. 2. When it seems he's GIVING more than he is GETTING, he feels frustrated and resentful. 3. The frustration and resentment build up and the NG acts out with: passive/aggressive behavior, rages, pouting, isolation, (Glover calls these "victim pukes.") Also, as the NG acts out, he feels totally justified. The NG has created a sense of emotional indebtedness. This all usually ends up with the SO pushing the NG further away.
Ouch.
I shared some of this with my W the other night. I told her that the NG book was helping me become aware of some of the things I've been doing that have contributed to her lack of desire for me. I said, "I don't blame you for not wanting to have sex with me . . . I wouldn't want to f@*k me, either" At first, she started to say something along the lines of "that's some 'poor little ol' me' statement," but I stopped her. "No. This is me finally realizing my contribution, and recognizing that I have some hard work ahead of me."
Way to go... I think you've found the route to where you want to be.
The covert contract is a very enticing trap... you don't have to come right out and admit that you want X, but you get to blame the other person for not delivering X.
Of course an overt contract for sex is a turn-off for both parties, unless you can be playful with it. For instance, if she asks you to do yardwork, you might smile and flex your muscles and say "are you thinking of having an affair with the gardener later on?" (WARNING: Only use this line if you do not in fact have a gardener working for you. Of course if you did, she would not be very likely to ask you to do yardwork)
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
Wow Hairdog!! While it can't be easy to see yourself in that book and description, I think what you'll find is that YOU will be much happier if you aren't making these convert contracts with your wife or anyone else for that matter.
Think about it - you won't HAVE to do things to secretly convince people to reward you AND you won't have to be disappointed when people don't reward you the way you are expecting them to. Of course it will be great for your wife to not have to deal with the unspoken disappointment but most importantly YOU will feel better!!
Out of curiosity, do you think you can forgive your wife for "breaking" the covert contracts over the years? I would imagine you have built up considerable resentment for her "failings."
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
I said, "I don't blame you for not wanting to have sex with me . . . I wouldn't want to f@*k me, either" At first, she started to say something along the lines of "that's some 'poor little ol' me' statement," but I stopped her. "No. This is me finally realizing my contribution, and recognizing that I have some hard work ahead of me."
How did she react to your statement, hd?
I think I need this book, too. I'm an NG (Nice Gal).
Guilty of these covert contracts as well. But what do you REPLACE them with? Overt contracts are ALSO unacceptable. I just covered 100% of the options unless someone can find a better solution. I am starting to wonder why we should do ANYTHING for our spouses
supposedly most men would just be happy with a willing and able partner That is one very dangerous comment, it is why explaining a SSM is so very hard. This implies that sex is just a physical act, that no bonding or emotional connections are being made. If this is true, then the husband should be able to have sex with ANYONE that is willing, and the wife should actually ENCOURAGE this, afterall, it is just an activity between two people. Most "willing" wives would scream bloody murder if their husbands started f#cking someone else. If the girl next door is "willing" to do me, and if sex is just about finding a willing partner, my wife should be happy for me. Truth is that most wives would be very UNHAPPY if this happened, because they know that deep emotional connections could be made.
This whole nice guy theory is interesting to me from the POV of a life long HDW. I'll tell you why. I'll use HD's example. HD wanted his wife to want to have sex with him because he chopped down the trees. This is like men on Match wanting me to want to have sex with them because they are romantic. I appreciate acts of service and I appreciate romantic gestures. They both make me feel cared for and loved but they don't make me want to have sex with a man. So, if I had been MsHD, I might have wanted to have sex with HD because he was so commanding in his approach to getting the trees chopped or because his biceps looked so hot wielding an ax but NOT because he made such a nice gesture. So when a HDW like me interacts with a "nice guy" what frequently happens is I convert a "nice guy" into a low-rent "bad boy" and it is not a pretty thing to behold. That is why I say that I would rather be with a guy who will initially play me straight-up monkey. A guy who understands female sexuality won't play nice to me to get sex but might play nice to me just to be nice or to keep me hanging around so he can have the opportunity to play "not so nice" to get me to want sex. - lol. We are all so afraid of being rejected for not being "nice" that we don't even stop for a moment to gain the self-awareness that would allow us to accept that what REALLY turns us on is the surest sign to what would turn on a sexual partner. The hard thing to understand (at least for me) is that sex can be valuable even if we don't value what turns us on sexually. But by acknowledging that I am turned on by (amongst many other things-lol) a devil-may-care attitude and solid biceps, I am more likely to be accepting of the fact that my partner is turned on by a teasing manner and a tightly laced corset. Desiring a woman to be turned on by "nice guy" behavior will therefore lead to resentment if such behavior causes a LD response from a woman but it will also lead to rejection of a HD response from a woman that persists in conveying honestly "I am having sex with you because I like the way you look strong when you wield an ax not because you wield an ax to win my favor." It's easier or "safer" to think that women respond to "niceness" rather than strength so the "nice guy" frequently fears or rejects the woman who is honest or self-aware about her sexuality. At least that has been my experience. That is why I frequently have a chicken-sh*tted urge to "act" less HD than I am or know I can be. Part of the reason I had such excellent sex last weekend was I summoned up some serious boldness and basically told the guy I am dating "Stop being such a gentleman. I REALLY like sex." Luckily, so far, it seems like he got what I meant by that since he is acting like someone who is nice and a sex fiend rather than confusing me by acting like someone who is nice in order to be a sex fiend. Well, at least it seems like I am further along my path to transcendent sex in the primeval forest and I am definitely on my way to skinny-dipping in a backyard pool because he is filling it as I type - lol (ask and ye shall receive)
Last edited by MJontheMend; 07/13/0704:43 AM.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Interesting how bad behavior in the man was automatically corrected and he became more desireable just by you being HD (exactly as Dr. Laura predicts). And people tell me this does not work.
