Hey, Cemar - But I'm a Nice Guy!

[Crazy Eddie]

Learning to take care of yourself is good. Check
Learning to hide things from people to protect their feelings is not good. I didn't and don't really hide things.
Learning to hide and deny the fact that you want things is not good. Didn't hide or deny but took responsibility for figuring out how to get it myself

Are you sure? You mentioned protecting other people's feelings. How did you do that exactly?

Learning to take the blame for problems stemming from other people's mental disorders is not good. I don't really take the blame but I do tend to try to overhelp people. It's not my fault but I do want to help them feel better.

And if they didn't feel better? Did you feel you had failed them?

It took a while for me to figure out that there sometimes isn't a way to make other people feel better; they'll feel better when they're ready to feel better and not before.

[OG_Lou]

Pleaser=rejection http://www.thework.com./video_rejection.asp

[OG_Lou]

Lil I still don't know what I want.
I don't want much, but I do know of a few things I want.

We live on very close parallel tracks but make few requests of each other.
I used to make more requests but up comes BB's list. I have to do the list if I want some things.

My first $5, no brakes, no fenders, no chain guard, flat tire bike was a bribe to get me to move back home. When things got rough at home, I stayed with my brother and his family, along with a bunch of other people.

I had my first car when I was 17. I bought it. I repaired it. I put gas in it.

I didn't expect anyone else to do things for me. Well, yeas I did. After I got the car, I went back to live with my 18 yr older brother.

In reality, my brother was more Mr. Nice Guy than I am/was.

The best thing was his pottery shop and his museum docent work
That was so good of you to do that for him Lil. And music in your bf's life too, and don't forget what you have done for his girls. You are a peach even if you don’t live in Georgia.

Lou

[fearless]

Lillie,

I have thought more about what you wrote yesterday.

When I met my late H, he also had forgotten how to want... so I spent my time figuring out what he wanted and getting it for him. The best thing was his pottery shop and his museum docent work-- he loved both those things and I was the one who pushed him into them.


That was a lovely thing to do for your late husband and I am sure he appreciated it very much. It seems obvious that you take great pride in being the one that pushed him. Does it make you feel worthwhile to have helped him like that?


I did that to some extent with my bf in the beginning, but less now. One thing I've noticed about our R is that we both ask virtually nothing of each other. We live on very close parallel tracks but make few requests of each other.


Does your BF know what he wants? Would it be possible that you resent him for not knowing what he wants because it doesn't allow yourself to distract yourself from the fact that you don't know what you want? As kind as it was for your late husband, it really isn't your job to figure out what someone wants and give it to them.

It would be difficult for people to request things from others if they don't know what they want. In fact I would guess that many people (and this does not necessarily mean you Lillie) don't ask for what they truly want because they don't know and yet they do know they want to FEEL happy. Then they are disappointed when their partners don't someone figure out how to GIVE them what they want and yet they do know that they don't FEEL happiness and therefore it must be their partner's fault. How can a partner figure out what you want if you don't know yourself and don't let them know what it is when you do figure it out?

I still don't know what I want.

So it still comes down to knowing what you "want." Of course want in this case means more about finding a passion in life rather than the wanting of "stuff."

A friend said to me a few years ago that she did not have something in life she was passionate about. She is still trying to figure it out but I admire that she has no expectation of her H to figure it out for her. She sees it fully as her responsibility to find that passion and to feed it. He has his passions - cars, Harley and, oddly enough, the piano. What she does do is look at the characteristics of her H that drew her to him and those are the things she continues to expect from him and those are "enough" - intense loyalty, trustworthiness, honesty and steadfastness (can you tell he was a West Point graduate?).

All of this to say that taking the time to search for your passion is your job alone. of course it would be nice if someone wanted to help but that is a high expectation to have of someone. In reality while it was a good thing for your late husband, in some ways your helping him was a distraction from finding your own passion which might not have been the best thing for you.

Anyway... just some thoughts for you. I realize that giving yourself permission to "want" something is probably a bit more difficult which is why it would help so much if someone figured it out for you.

[fearless]

Great Questions. And finding the answers are kind of the process I am working through with counseling.

I was probably playing a bit with words about the hiding. I don't really hide much per se. I interpret hiding as something more active than just not mentioning something. At the same time, I don't always expose things if I feel I can handle it on my own. Does that make sense? Admittedly there are times when I make mistakes about whether I can handle things or not but overall I would say I am pretty good about knowing what I can handle on my own and when I need to ask for help. Funnily enough, asking for help is very easy is certain circumstances - when I feel confident and when I know I could do it but just don't have the time or when I know EXACTLY what needs done so I can be specific. I find it much harder to ask for help when I don't really know if I can do it or if I don't know exactly what I need. I don't like putting people in the situation of trying to help but in the end not doing exactly what I need. it seems unfair to have people try to help and then in the end not do what is needed. Does that make ANY sense???

[cemar2]

fearless:

I have trouble with this because I mix happiness in with validation. For example compare the two situiations below:

Situation #1: He is the ultimate Deida man, he achieves his purpose, which is to be a CEO of his own company, but he is married to a fridgid woman.

Situation #2: Same man as above, but he finds his soulmate, a woman that is highly desirous of him.

Obviously, situation #2 is FAR preferable to situation #1. So how is a desirous woman NOT the ultimate validation? And would man in situation #1 really feel good about what he did?

[Crazy Eddie]

fearless:

I have trouble with this because I mix happiness in with validation. For example compare the two situiations below:

Situation #1: He is the ultimate Deida man, he achieves his purpose, which is to be a CEO of his own company, but he is single.

Situation #2: Same man as above, but he finds his soulmate, a woman that is highly desirous of him.

Obviously, situation #2 is FAR preferable to situation #1. So how is a desirous woman NOT the ultimate validation? And would man in situation #1 really feel good about what he did?

Of course he would. The man in situation #1 accomplished exactly what the man in situation #2 did. Why wouldn't he feel good about what he did? And he's only single for the moment... sooner or later a good woman will see him for what he is and want to be with him. Until then, he can enjoy the single life. Either way, he's successful and has plenty to be proud of and happy with. (And either way, he gets laid as much as he wants )

[fearless]

Ah Cemar so you are basically starting to admit it: I have trouble with this

IMHO that in a nutshell is going to stop you from getting what you want. You keep looking for the loopholes in possible solutions to your problem. You want a solution that is convenient and easy for you which in your case means that everything wrong with your marriage is because of your WIFE. Anything that might require you to look inward is off the table because it is "logically" your wife's fault. You like to call yourself logical but to me a "logical" person would stop doing the same things that were getting him nowhere and would start looking somewhere else. In fact you might say it would be more logical to work on yourself EVEN IF your wife has real issues because the fact is you cannot change someone else no matter how much you would like to believe you can.

You are like the overweight person that drinks milkshakes every day and does not exercise and yet claims they REALLY want to lose weight. So you explain that by giving up milkshakes and beginning to walk every day, they can start to slowly and healthfully lose weight. Then they tell you "I have trouble with this because milkshakes and sitting by the television are what make me happy." Mmmm. Then the "logical" explanation is that they REALLY don't want to lose weight.

Crazy Eddie: to address your earlier questions, I do not feel like a failure because I cannot get through to Cemar. Of course I can continue to refine my posts and try to reach him but truly he will never be reached until he chooses to open himself up. On the other hand, I am still trying because I do hate to give up on people!

P.S.

To address your question, what if the man in example #1 really didn't want to be CEO of his own company but was doing so in order to try to get his wife to become desirous of him? Then he REALLY wouldn't be happy.

Also in example #2 what about the woman is the ultimate "validation" of him? What if she doesn't give a d@mn that he is a CEO (maybe she thinks that he spends too much time at work) but loves him for his compassion and intensity? Would that diminish her love for him in your eyes?

I don't know how to be clearer that mixing validation that should come within with others is ALWAYS going to create problems because someone else will NEVER CONSISTENTLY be able to validate you.

[heatherg]

This is a really interesting thread, there are many, many things that have been posted that I can relate to.

I know I didn't have the best childhood, but honestly, it's hard to know how much it affected me or I guess we can safely assume it affected me, but I'm not sure in what ways exactly because I honestly don't remember a lot. My sister is the same way, she doesn't remember much either and she's expressed concern over that but I guess I've never really stopped to think about it. Even though I know my situation was messed up, I mostly just wish I'd gotten better guidance on how to be a good person, ya know? That's something I don't think anyone in my family really thinks about. I wish I'd have had the wherewithall to make better decisions in high school and figure out who I wanted to be. Instead I just muddled through and was not very deliberate in my decisions.

My H is a very deliberate individual, surprise to you all right One of the things about myself that I feel like most people would consider a good quality is that I make things happen for myself. My H however tends to see that as self centered. If I want something, I figure out how to get it....I don't use this quality for myself only, but again....I wasn't brought up thinking about how to be a good person. Thinking about how to please others honestly probably requires more effort from me than it might from other people. I would never, ever want to HURT anyone, but I guess I don't always stop and think about how I can make others HAPPY. That's something I want to change about myself, in that way I guess I sort of agree that I am selfish or self centered at least.
I scored in the 30s for the Nice Guy test. I can totally see where I don't want to be selfish, so I don't verbalize my wants. But I do get really pissy if those wants aren't met. I'm also a MAJOR approval seeker and resentment sets in pretty darn quick when I don't get it. That's something that I know is very childish of me, I'm just not sure how to change it. I can ACT like I'm not that way, but on the inside, it's there and I don't know how to genuinely change it.

[OG_Lou]

Not making requests of a spouse?

I guess my screen name, D.I.Y., gives me away. Some times I want to do it myself. Some times there is almost other choice than doing it myself.

I made some R requests and some feeling statements but ran into BB's list. O'well, back to DIY.

Lou