Do I buy a house? What about sex?

[Trixi]

Ack- so much to think about.
for clarifications sake-
He's been ambivalent for a couple years. Has waffled between divorce or not. I finally forced his hand because I can't stand always wondering if *this* is the fight that will end it.Lately he had been being withdrawn and mopey and resistant to doing anything with me. He was obviously not happy. It's not fair that after 10 years (together 12 1/2) I should be constantly wondering. We have tried counseling in the past. never worked.

He cannot articulate to me, what exactly is missing for him, but he just doesn't feel strongly enough. He loves me deeply and I am his best friend..BUT he thinks there might be someone better out there for him. And maybe he doesn't even want a relationship. Bottom line to him(3 days ago) we absolutely must live separately for him to figure out what he wants.

Regarding him in the bed. It is hard for me. Plus, it was SO awkward this morning. Usually I would be bringing him coffee and snuggle up to him, little bit of rubbing on the privates to get things "up" and moving. This morning I set the coffee next to the bed, told him the time and tentatively rubbed his shoulders. He was non-responsive. Given that he doesn't want to lead me on, I think he was trying to be aloof.

I agree I shouldn't buy a house. But he's convinced I should. He thinks he shouldn't have to move. (He'll be paying the mortgage on this house anyway, so he thinks he should get to live here.)

We have been up and down for many years. 2001 is when he "decided" he would be divorcing me in 2006. He expressed that he didn't know if I could "stop this train" back in 2005. (When I found out about his divorce plans.)

Because we have repeatedly ended up talking about separating over the years, he thinks it's futile, we always end up at this place and there must be a reason why and that I should "let him go."

crap- now i am more confused than ever. I can make a case for all the positions. I think he is cake eating, btw. One of the things he has mentioned is that I let him get away with having his cake and eating it too (he used to go out without me and get home at 3am,4am) and i would complain, but never put my foot down. Now I am putting my foot down. he said I should have put my foot down long ago. He has also said I need to be sassier. not wimpy.

FYI-my businesses are based out of the house and a MAJOR PITA to move. I could use that as my reasoning for why HE should move. Right now he is being agreeable; I wonder if that would make him disagreeable....
Does this influence anyones opinion?? I am still debating about setting up the other bedroom for him.....

[Dom R]

lots of more questions

1. you said you "usually" rub him in the morning. when did "usually" stop? and why?
If just when you kicked him out.. but he usually *likes* it.. i dont see why you should stop. keep showing him you love him. Just as long as he likes the way you show him.

2. 2001? he decided on 2006? WTH??? *why*???
(never heard of a WAS who actually announced their intentions.. this is way wierd)

3. why do you "repeatedly end up talking about separating?
Does he always bring it up? or do you? whats going on here??

"
Now I am putting my foot down. he said I should have put my foot down long ago. He has also said I need to be sassier. not wimpy.
"

Umm... wow. he's telling you what he wants. you are very lucky.
LISTEN TO HIM!

from that, sounds like he wants you to fight for your marriage.
The tricky bit is in figuring out how to "fight", without breaking the bond.
How did you do it, when you "put your foot down" about him staying out all the time?

Final comment:

It's not fair that after 10 years (together 12 1/2) I should be constantly wondering.

"fair"? Pffft. who said marriage was fair.

Obviously, you still have work to be done. But maybe you need to be more "'act as if' he's going to stay".
A wild shot in the dark: maybe your recent transition to "its not fair", was what pushed him into move-out mode?

PPS: maybe, rather than him "trying to be aloof", he was just confused and unsure how to act.

[MikeinMidland2]

He has given you some hints. He'd like you to be "sassier." You should have put your foot down "a long time ago."

Well, better late than never. Figure out exactly what you are willing to put up with, and what NOT. Then tell him very directly what you expect of him.

Do not move out. Don't even think about it. Tell him if he wants to live alone, there's the door. It's your house and you're not going anywhere.

As for who sleeps where, I wouldn't make any moves unless he has done something to justify cutting him off (ie, an affair).

How he responds to this approach will tell you what your next move is. Of course, this all assumes you don't want a divorce.

[Trixi]

lots of more questions

1. you said you "usually" rub him in the morning. when did "usually" stop? and why?
If just when you kicked him out.. but he usually *likes* it.. i dont see why you should stop. keep showing him you love him. Just as long as he likes the way you show him.

I stopped when he announced that he absolutely needed to move out. Last Thursday. Naturally, he liked it a great deal.

Interesting side note- a couple weekends ago he said that he always felt like he could do what he wanted because I would always be here;he knows that there is probably no one in this world that will love him more than me; but he doesn't have the same feeling towards me. (I think he means *passion*- although we have a great sex life....)

2. 2001? he decided on 2006? WTH??? *why*???
(never heard of a WAS who actually announced their intentions.. this is way wierd)

I ferretted out his intentions late 2005. His sister said it was only fair to tell me and give me a chance to fix things. He decided in 2001 that he would remain until both children were graduated then he could be free. In 2001 I weighed 70 pounds more than I do now and had a MAJOR thyroid condition that basically made me feel like the walking dead. I was properly diagnosed in 2005. I was a fuddy duddy.
When he told me, he expressed that he had been really looking forward to his freedom and so he didn't really think I could change his mind. My changes actually had a positive impact that confused him.Hence the waffling--he has had a long standing fantasy of how great being single would be.

3. why do you "repeatedly end up talking about separating?
Does he always bring it up? or do you? whats going on here??

He will go thru cycles of being depressed/morose. He disengages. Basically, the talking about separating comes about because we are trying to figure out what in the heck is going to make him happy.

Now I am putting my foot down. he said I should have put my foot down long ago. He has also said I need to be sassier. not wimpy.
"

Umm... wow. he's telling you what he wants. you are very lucky.
LISTEN TO HIM!

from that, sounds like he wants you to fight for your marriage.
The tricky bit is in figuring out how to "fight", without breaking the bond.
How did you do it, when you "put your foot down" about him staying out all the time?

I wish he did want me to fight for the marriage. He has said that he wishes I would "just let him go".
When I put my foot down regarding going out, I said "if you really want to go out, that's fine. But you can't be married to me."
(explanation: he didn't start wearing his wedding ring until 2006. And then, only on and off and he only started wearing it at my request. He has told me that he "likes to go out and flirt". He gets WAY drunk when he goes out. I asked that if he were going to go out that we agree to a reasonable time, and he refused. Didn't want to be 'boxed' in.)

Final comment:

It's not fair that after 10 years (together 12 1/2) I should be constantly wondering.

"fair"? Pffft. who said marriage was fair.

Obviously, you still have work to be done. But maybe you need to be more "'act as if' he's going to stay".
A wild shot in the dark: maybe your recent transition to "its not fair", was what pushed him into move-out mode?

In January he announced (during one of his morose times) that he was "afraid he was going to cheat" and when I asked why, he said "Well, you know how women are with lead singers of a band." (He was not and is not currently in a band--but desires to be in one.) He finished by saying "I think I want to leave the relationship. I think I should see a counselor and see if they can talk me out of it."

PPS: maybe, rather than him "trying to be aloof", he was just confused and unsure how to act.

This is a man who will do whatever it takes to get me out of my pants if that is what he wants. he had no problem pursuing me for the booty call. I was a little hesitant, but he persisted.

Armed with that info-- still let him sleep in the bed?

[Trixi]

He has given you some hints. He'd like you to be "sassier." You should have put your foot down "a long time ago."

Well, better late than never. Figure out exactly what you are willing to put up with, and what NOT. Then tell him very directly what you expect of him.

Do not move out. Don't even think about it. Tell him if he wants to live alone, there's the door. It's your house and you're not going anywhere.

He pays the mortgage (I don't make anywhere near enough to pay it). Ultimately, it would end up being his house.

As for who sleeps where, I wouldn't make any moves unless he has done something to justify cutting him off (ie, an affair).

How he responds to this approach will tell you what your next move is. Of course, this all assumes you don't want a divorce.

I feel like if I let him stay in the bed and give him the booty call, that we will be back where we were when he went out til all hours of the morning with no call, etc. On Saturday night he "went to a friends" and didn't arrive back home until 11am Sunday. No call from him to let me know. He is trying to live like he is single. He did end up telling me where he was, etc, (not with a woman), but none-the-less, he is doing the same stuff he did years ago that I object to.

I absolutely do NOT want a divorce, but also do not want our relationship as it is. I think that the only way for that to happen is for him to choose me. For him to really know that he can't be without me.

[MikeinMidland2]

OK, now you've got ME all over the place on this thing. Now I realize my previous advice will give him just exactly wants--total freedom to do what he wants and a booty call at home if he strikes out at the bar.

He says he was at a friends. Maybe, maybe not. If he was, he was still trying to make you jealous or mad enough to leave or something.

So, go ahead and set up the spare room for him. But you are going to have to be strong about not allowing him to use you like that.

As far as who pays the mortgage and who gets the house, that doesn't happen until the divorce is final, unless you want it to. Who's to say what you can afford with all the alimony he's going to have to pay you?? (for the sake of argument). Don't take his version of the future as the gospel.

You don't move out of that house unless there's a sherriff's deputy at the door with a court order.

[C_K]

Hi

I have read through your thread and in my opinion things are too easy for him.

On Saturday night he "went to a friends" and didn't arrive back home until 11am Sunday.

This is unfortunately a warning sign , my W did this , told me stayed with F friend etc but was with OM at the time.

You need to change you. Be that Sassier woman he wants but cut off the sexual contact with him ( for more than one reason as well ).
Start doing stuff by yourself , move him out to the spare room or move yourself.

Take the mans cake away , then see what happens

Dave

[Dom R]

Very interesting stuff.

point by point:
* you didnt answer my question, on why he had decided to move out, in 2001.
I think that you being 70 pounds overweight was clearly a major factor. Good for you in getting control of yourself over that. A major "well done" on that!
Now the question is.. what other factors where there?

* you didnt answer my question on who brings up the separation. you said "it comes up..." but you didnt specifically answer.



moving on, though...

He finished by saying "I think I want to leave the relationship. I think I should see a counselor and see if they can talk me out of it."

...

This is a man who will do whatever it takes to get me out of my pants if that is what he wants. he had no problem pursuing me for the booty call. I was a little hesitant, but he persisted.

I think this is a man who is very confused about what he wants. He doesnt know what he wants. He doesnt quite know what will make him happy. He's torn between the lure of the sexy unknown greener grass out there, and what he has with you.
Trouble is.. what he has with you, is uncertain. he's not quite sure it will stick. And trouble is, you're pulling away, making it even more uncertain.

You might try the book "fall in love, stay in love" by willard harley, which goes into the idea of a "love bank", and things that different people find important to them in a relationship. It talks about "emotional needs", one of which is sex.
You can get an "emotional needs" survey online somewhere t marriagebuilders.com, fyi.


If he were fully functional and more self-aware, ideally you would be able to give him the "emotional needs" survey, and then meet his most important needs. but as things stand... it might be beneficial to you, to pretend to be him and take the survey yourself. Then figure out how you can best meet those needs.


I think he reacted "well", to your putting down boundaries about his going out and "flirting". The thing is, i dont think you neccessarily had to threaten divorce to do it.
He's crying out for help, in his own way. he said he "wants to be talked out of it".

I'm not a counsellor, but here's my gut suggestions, as a guy:

figure out what he likes. Then offer it to him, as kinda a deal.

if you have time.. and I think you might... here's how it could work:

Show him how you'd like to treat him, for the rest of your lives together (and really mean it; only do it, if you're willing to do it every day)

get back to being "friendly" in the morning with him. look good for him. cook for him. whatever he likes. And especially whaever you remember he likes, that you hvent been doing for him for a while (see the "emotional needs" thing).

After a few days of this, when he seems to be responding favourablely, have a (hopefully non-threatening) talk with him.

Maybe say something like,


"i hope you have noticed the things i've been doing for you lately. I'm sorry I havent been doing them as much as you like.
I would like to keep doing them for you every day. I love you.

it hurts me when you go out looking for attention from other women. I'd like to give you as much attention as you can handle It hurts me too much to keep doing it, though, if you are going to turn away my attentions for other women.

it's up to you; If you like how i've been treating you, then stop looking for other women, and lets keep enjoying each other.
If you'd rather be chasing other women, then I'll stop, and leave you be".


ideally, I think you should be snuggling with him, and keeping his warm fuzzy emotions very high on you when you say all this.. and then after you finish that speech, just "act as if" he accepts, and rock his world (unless he says "no" of course)

That sound like a good plan for you?

I think this works, because

1. it shows him that you have boundaries, and can be strong, yet
2. you also love him, and are a welcoming place for him to be
3. you're an ENJOYABLE place to be


I think that what you can reasonably hope for right now from him, is a "ok, i've been enjoying this, I'll stick around and see how long it lasts"

and if you can keep it up for a few months, and can really stick to it for the rest of your lives.. i think perhaps he will realize that he's in a good, safe place, and *want* to stay, for good.

[Trixi]

Thanks to ALL of you taking the time to read and respond. I feel so discombulated and all over the map.

Regarding the 2001 thing when he decided he was going leave; he did not actually LEAVE in '01. He decided that in '06 (when the youngest graduated) he would divorce me. He did not reveal his 'plan' until 2005 when I got upset that the guy who "didn't like wearing rings/wasn't a jewelry type of guy" was wearing a dragon ring all the time, but no wedding ring. That was when he told me about his plans; and partially because his sis' had said it would only be fair to give me a heads up. His original plan had been to wait until the springtime to let me know.

As to the straw that broke the camels back in 2001, we went to FL to see his family the first week of July. I live in Seattle. Florida (climate wise) was HORRID. I was overweight, boiling hot all the time, and he and his siblings were drinking non-stop. I felt out of place. I felt like *someone* had to remain sober to take care of the kids. I lost a precious pet (who was sick before we left) while away. It was a HORRIBLE time. That was when he decided.

Since then we have gone on good trips, but somehow he just keeps remembering that trip and holding it against me. (He's brought it up within the last year, and then I have to go over all the other trips and say "well, didn't we have a good time at _____? What about _____?") When he starts to box me into the "fuddy duddy" box, I point out that he is sticking me in a box; that's not me anymore.

I have been a changed person since mid-late 2005. I have gradually been getting more confident to demand he act like a married man. Not a single guy with married benefits.

The reason we are even still together is because I put the marriagebuilders theories into practice in 2005. We attended the MB weekend this past March. He refuses to do the 15 hours of undivided attention. Says he just doesn't have the energy or desire. I *never* bring up separation or divorce; he does, and then I talk him out of it. This last Thursday, I decided not to.

One of his alleged complaints is that I do too much for him. That I am too nice to him. That I haven't made him *want* to not desire his freedom, but despite emotional needs questions, the counseling, etc, he can not articulate what it would take for me to fulfill his needs. He feels "drawn" to having his freedom.

I don't think there really is anything more I could do to show this man that I love him. He already feels totally confidant that i will remain no matter what he does (within reason.)

I have set up the guest room.
What do you all think of this:
"Gosh, this morning things seemed like they were a little awkward between us" (Pause to see if he agrees.)
Assuming he does-
"I went ahead and set up the guest room for you."

[part of me wants to say something like "It's not that I am opposed to being physical with you, because I most certainly am agreeable to that, but I do not want to end up in the same sitch we were in a couple years ago with you living as a single guy who's married." Argh, that's not good...I dunno.]

Okay, could someone with a clearer head coach me on a good way to broach this subject?

[MikeinMidland2]

The difficult thing here is that he stayed out Saturday night until Sunday morning, and then slept with you last night. He was insistent, basically wanting to prove that he could have you even after whatever he did Saturday night.

You don't want to go the route of seeing if he "agrees" that things were "awkward" this morning.

Here's what you have to do. Reiterate what you said last week, that you expect him to behave like a married man. That Saturday night he did not do that, and did not give you the respect you deserve. That based on the fact that after talking yesterday (when he told you where he was) he chose to sleep in your bed last night, you are assuming that he agrees with you and intends not to repeat that behavior.

Pause to let that sink in. Then ask, "Are we on the same page with this, or not?" If he says he intends to go out and stay out as he pleases, then tell him where he's sleeping.

Alternatively, you could just hang signs on the bedroom doors. "Devoted couple" and "inconsiderate bastard" and let him figure out where to sleep.