Too bad female "people-pleasers" don't extend that to pleasing the man in their lives in the way that the man really wants
Of course male people-pleasers don't do all that well at pleasing people either. They're too busy doing what they think the other person "should" want to figure out (a) what does the other person really want and (b) what am I hoping to gain from pleasing them anyway? Is there a better way to get it?
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
I don't know if seeking validation from the husband is the overriding urge from the female martyr. I think female martyrs are driven by the urge to satisfy a perceived societal demand.
No, probably not the overriding urge. I do think female martyrs are seeking validation from their Hs, but they just don't "get" that the Hs are much more impressed by a good SL than they are with a squeaky-clean house (generalizing here, I know). I used to think that cac would think badly about me if the house wasn't kept up, and even now, I still have those thoughts, and then I remind myself that the house is much lower on his list than maintaining a good SL. It's hard programming to shake.
I think cac and I both have Mr./Mrs. Nice Guy tendencies. We've both given up power to the other because we perceived that we had to, for a whole bunch of reasons, most of which didn't really exist. Then we resented the other because of it.
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Everytime I think of martyrs I always hear a cartoon that used to play on Bugs Bunny. The mommy cat would walk off saying, "I work and I slave and what thanks do I get? Boo hoo hoo."
CE - the "wants" are what gets people into trouble. H and I both make a point of not saying "I want" something because it implies it is a necessity (which most of the time we know to be quite the opposite). Needs, on the other hand, are quite a different story.
My father-in-law used to say "it's not what people need that creates the problems in the world, it's what they WANT" - no truer words have been spoken
Heywyre
M - 57 H - 65 1st A-bomb - Nov 27/02 2nd A-bomb - Dec 13/06 together 21 years *************************** Insanity is doing something over and over and expecting different results (Albert Einstein)
Cemar, I think you exist just to draw me back to posting!
You just do not seem to GET it.
Nice Guys interpret a woman's approval as the ultimate validation of their worth.
When I read this I DID NOT see anything that says that a man would not seek or desire a woman's approval. What I read in this statement is that the "Nice Guy" has no higher form of validation in his life – self validation or otherwise - other than seeking a woman's approval.
To be clear - wanting to be with a woman that loves and desires you is absolutely healthy; NEEDING a woman to want and desire you in order to feel like you are acceptable and validated is not healthy. Can you see the difference??
By the way you made a big point of saying how logical you are but curiously I find you very illogical on the boards. All I see is someone who goes round and round and rather than answer questions continuously deflects to avoid deeper discussion. Not very logical to me.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
If a man was not seeking, sexual desire, flirtation, a smile, the touch of her skin, then what exactly WOULD he be seeking from a woman? If I was dating a woman, and she only offered friendship, I would be moving on.
Do you think your wife could write:
"If a woman was not seeking financial security, emotional strength and honesty, a personal vision for his life, the depth of his leadership, then what exactly WOULD she be seeking from a man? If I was dating a man, and he only offered his penis, I would be moving on."
How close are you to what she may envision?
But then this misses the point. There is nothing wrong with wanting desire, flirtation, a smile, the touch of her skin, etc.
It gets off when men actively destroy and squelch their very self, when they practice dishonesty, when they emotionally hide themselves, when they speak words they don't mean, when they eat words that should be said, when they silently resent her, when they disguise their needs, when they covertly do X with the expectation that she should deliver Y - even when this hasn't been verbalized.
All in the guise of being "nice" and keeping the peace.
If a man was not seeking, sexual desire, flirtation, a smile, the touch of her skin, then what exactly WOULD he be seeking from a woman? If I was dating a woman, and she only offered friendship, I would be moving on.
I think Mrs. Nop meant that in the context that those things from a female define Who He Is, for a Mr. Nice Guy. I'm stunned by the list Mrs. NOP provided, cuz honestly... that was my xH to a T.
CE - the "wants" are what gets people into trouble. H and I both make a point of not saying "I want" something because it implies it is a necessity (which most of the time we know to be quite the opposite). Needs, on the other hand, are quite a different story.
My father-in-law used to say "it's not what people need that creates the problems in the world, it's what they WANT" - no truer words have been spoken
I'm not sure I follow. Isn't it the cardinal error of the Nice Guy that he pretends he has no wants, and isn't it a given that people do have wants and should feel perfectly entitled to go after some of their wants (i.e., those that don't conflict with their duties)?
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
I think Mrs. Nop meant that in the context that those things from a female define Who He Is, for a Mr. Nice Guy. I'm stunned by the list Mrs. NOP provided, cuz honestly... that was my xH to a T.
Corri
Me too. Well, I tried to be manipulative and controlling but wasn't very good at it. The rest was spot-on.
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
Originally Posted By: MrsNOP We learned to "not want". Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you and I share similar issues in that it's very difficult to ask people to do things for us, or to "impose" our wants and wishes on other people.
I tend to be like this, although, I think I'm doing a little better, as I learn how self-destructive this can be.
For me it is fear - to ask is to be vulnerable. To be vulnerable may lead to rejection. Rejection leads to pain. Pain leads to withdrawal. Withdrawal leads to emotional isolation. Emotional isolation leads to broken relationships.
And
For me it is control - to receive is to concentrate on yourself. If you're concentrating on yourself, you are being selfish. If you're being selfish, the other person may not be having a good time. If they aren't having a good time, it's your fault. It's your fault because you got them to do it. Fault leads to pain. Pain leads to emotional isolation. Emotional isolation leads to broken relationships.
snort.
Keep in mind, I haven't even put this in the context of sex - this applies to asking someone to go to a particular restaurant or movie.
Oh, the joys of growing up in an alcoholic family. Constantly taking guage of the surrounding relational temperature in order to determine the best tactic to keep things stable.
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Quote: When men act this way, it can derail their masculinity and can produce a "princess syndrome" in the wife.
Mr. & Mrs. Choc.?
I think it's applicable to several relationships here.
My father-in-law used to say "it's not what people need that creates the problems in the world, it's what they WANT" - no truer words have been spoken
I think this is more about understanding wants versus needs. And how we should be cautious of letting our wants get out of hand. Think about it. As a society we all seem to want to have MORE things and in order to have more we want things to be cheaper. And therefore we are implicitly okay with letting people in other countries work 12 hour days 7 days a week for dollars a day in order to satisfy our wants.
Isn't it the cardinal error of the Nice Guy that he pretends he has no wants
I think the cardinal error would be that the Nice Guy is that he does not know himself and is not comfortable with himself and is looking for someone external to make him feel good about himself. Pretending he does not have wants or needs is merely one way to get that result. The martyr on the other hand would make a big deal of vocalizing their wants and needs but refusing to get them in order to try to make themselves feel good about who they are and that doesn't work much better for them than the nice guy pretending that they have no wants or needs.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
