Something that TVN and myself have going against us is that we are men that have a strong inclination to LOGICAL thinking. TVN is a porogrammer and I am an accountant. Everything we do is LOGICAL THINKING. We are SOLUTION oriented. And guess what, this is everything that women are NOT. We can not apply OUR techniques to ANYTHING in marriage, since marriage is almost completely ILLOGICAL. Who would ever think that being Mr Nice guy is the WORST thing you can do in marriage. Who would ever think that women constantly try to destroy their own marriages just to see if the guy has enough balls to actually FIGHT for her. Or to think that women can only desire men that would be willing to DUMP them if they do become LD, rather then honor their marriage vows. This goes AGAINST everything in my LOGICAL world.
TVN, you will have to think WAY othside the box, forget about fixing the situation, forget about addressing the problems. Read those books, they won't solve your problem, that is for HER alone to do. They will hopefully make you into a man, a soild rock, and THAT is what she needs. Think of it as everything she does is to TEST you, and you must respond with conviction.
Cemar, I strongly recommend a book I just got through reading. No More Mr. Nice Guy by Dr. Robert A. Glover. He has a website HERE.
The page with the list of Nice Guy Syndrome symptoms is HERE..
Nice Guys:
are givers.
fix and caretake.
seek approval from others.
avoid conflict.
believe they must hide their perceived flaws and mistakes.
seek the "right" way to do things.
repress their feelings.
often try to be different from their fathers.
are often more comfortable relating to women than to men.
have difficulty making their needs a priority.
often make their partner their emotional center.
The author asks, "So, what's wrong with being a nice guy?"
And he answers, "The term Nice Guy is actually a misnomer because Nice Guys are often anything but nice. Here are some not-so-nice traits of Nice Guys.
Nice Guys:
are dishonest.
are secretive.
are compartmentalized.
are manipulative.
are controlling.
are passive-aggressive.
are full of rage.
are addictive.
have difficulty setting boundaries.
are frequently isolated.
are often attracted to people and situations that need fixing.
have problems in intimate relationships because:
they are often terrible listeners because they're too busy trying to figure out how to defend themselves or fix the other person.
their fear of conflict often leads them to be dishonest and rarely available to work all the way through a problem.
have issues with sexuality.
are usually only relatively successful (fail to live up to their full potential).
The opposite of "Nice Guy" isn't "jerk". It isn't about going from one extreme to the other. It isn't about becoming "not nice".
It is about becoming "integrated". The author writes, "Being integrated means being able to accept all aspects of one's self. An integrated man is able to embrace everything that makes him unique: his power, his assertiveness, his courage, and his passion as well as his imperfections, his mistakes and his dark side."
Not alpha. Not some hollywoodized version of masculinity.
Real. It means becoming real.
Like I said, I highly recommend it and think most of the men here would greatly benefit from reading it.
I can easily see where I fall into this trap. I have spent my whole life trying to be too nice. Sounds very much like the other 2 books on being a man. If I get a chance I will try to read it.
Lou, I don't think it's limited to gender. I scored high 30s myself. I do think it has differing impacts between genders.
You and I both came from impoverished backgrounds. We learned to "not want". Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you and I share similar issues in that it's very difficult to ask people to do things for us, or to "impose" our wants and wishes on other people.
When men act this way, it can derail their masculinity and can produce a "princess syndrome" in the wife. When women act this way, it can derail the development of their sexuality.
This is really interesting. Another book to add to my growing list. Maybe "Mr. Nice Guy" is sort of a male version of the female martyr?
I can see the similarities. The biggest difference I see off hand is the Nice Guy need for female approval.
I don't know if seeking validation from the husband is the overriding urge from the female martyr. I think female martyrs are driven by the urge to satisfy a perceived societal demand.
Everytime I think of martyrs I always hear a cartoon that used to play on Bugs Bunny. The mommy cat would walk off saying, "I work and I slave and what thanks do I get? Boo hoo hoo."
According to Glover, "Nice Guys seek external validation in just about every social situation, but their quest for approval is the most pronounced in their relationships with women. Nice Guys interpret a woman's approval as the ultimate validation of their worth. Signs of a woman's approval can take the form of her desire to have sex, flirtatious behavior, a smile, a touch, or attentiveness. At the other end of the spectrum, if a woman is depressed, in a bad mood, or angry, Nice Guys interpret these things to mean that she is not accepting or approving of them. {...}
Seeking a woman's approval:
requires Nice Guys to constantly monitor the possibility of a woman's availability.
give women the power to set the tone of the relationship.
gives women the power to define men and determine their worth.
creates rage toward women.
So, I see a huge difference in motivation between the two.
And I've got Alice Cooper in my head too and that's just not right for a Monday. :Q
We learned to "not want". Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you and I share similar issues in that it's very difficult to ask people to do things for us, or to "impose" our wants and wishes on other people.
I tend to be like this, although, I think I'm doing a little better, as I learn how self-destructive this can be.
Quote:
When men act this way, it can derail their masculinity and can produce a "princess syndrome" in the wife.
Mr. & Mrs. Choc.?
Quote:
When women act this way, it can derail the development of their sexuality.
Definitely.
I see similarities between Mr./Mrs. Nice Guy and "people pleasing" syndrome.
Nice Guys interpret a woman's approval as the ultimate validation of their worth. Signs of a woman's approval can take the form of her desire to have sex, flirtatious behavior, a smile, a touch, or attentiveness.
If a man was not seeking, sexual desire, flirtation, a smile, the touch of her skin, then what exactly WOULD he be seeking from a woman? If I was dating a woman, and she only offered friendship, I would be moving on.
I don't think it takes an impoverished background. Just caregivers that hammer home the notion that "no one cares what you want!"
(Unfortuately, when my 6 year old son was whining a never ending litany of "I want... I want... I want", I snapped and explicitly said in a fairly loud voice "No one cares what you want!" I wish I could take that back. Maybe I can with better messages given over time. But most of the time, children don't and shouldn't get what they want, so it's kind of tricky)
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
