Having some mixed success/failure, now what?

[Nomopo]

Ok. I am working my way back through posts since Friday afternoon, the last time I was online at length. Sorry some of this may be stale, but I'm just gonna dive in with some comments. Hopefully some will help. There was a ton, BTW, and I think you posted three more times while I was typing. Also, no time to proof, so sorry for the typos.

Wow. That really means a lot to me. I hope you are right, because I just can't see my blinders right now.

Well, I hope didn't mislead you. All I meant was at the end of the day we can come in here and try to give you support and advice and help you consider options and different ways of looking at things, but at the end of the day this is your life, your sitch, and you will make the decisions by yourself. Again, I wish I had added the 48-hour rule to my post. That is important for all of us, but I think it is especially important for you. It can be your lifesaver, so make it second nature.

The day before she left, she made her first apology (regarding the earlier affair). I didn't slam her, but I did respond rather cooly.

You don't know a blessing when it hits you in the face, do you? My W still has not apologized for her EA, and I caught her redhanded. She doesn't want anyone to know (gee, why not?), but she doesn't owe me an apology. Sure, she's apologized for lying to me and deceiving me, but the A was really my fault. I forced her to do it. You got an apology, and if I were you I would have been more than cool. I would have been thankful. Oh well, not trying to make you feel like dirt. It's just that you can't always change your life but you sure as hell can change how you look at it.

Yeah, it's my fault for caring, but man does it hurt sometimes.

There's nothing wrong with caring. In factm there's something very right about caring. If you accepted and honored the fact that you care more, it might help you see how to act in some of these situations you find yourself in. The fact that you care would be a much better motivator than the fact that you are hurt and angry (even if your hurt and anger are justified, and they are).

Ok, on to the Friday night "exchange."

Just spent an hour on the phone with W (first broken rule).

That's not so bad. R talks happen, but generally better to avoid them. You know this.

I spoke plainly about what I have learned these last few months. I let her know that there is a better way, but that we would have to work on it together.

Nothing wrong with this.

She kept trying to jump ahead and point out problems from the past, and I did my best to validate her opinions, but I kept the drum beat on the idea that we can choose our own course, that everything is open.

So far, seems ok.

At one point, I addressed the proposal she had sent over, pointed out that she has said that she was totally flexible and has reversed her position on several major sections, so it wasn't even worth discussing (that's a really major screw up on my game plan, I wanted to draw out the "reviewing process" at least another couple of weeks), and that if she really wants a divorce, she should go ahead and file. Oooops.

What proposal? A divorce proposal? I guess I missed that somewhere. Yeah, not your best moment, but not as bad as you probably think. Just pick yourself up, and get back to work.

I think I kept my head pretty well, otherwise. No crying, no name calling (though I did point out the fact that she is having an affair, no matter how you slice it). Just plain talk about how to make this situation better.

That all sounds fine to me, including the part about the A (though you don't need to point it out anymore).

I am totally and completely screwed.

Didn't seem nearly that bad to me. Who knows?

Ok, a four hours later you analyzed it yourself, I guess,

Yeah, this is serious stuff, and today has brought some less than stellar developments, but I still haven't given up. It may have seemed that way in my previous post, so I'm going to identify some possible positives:

Good. Nice rebound on the PMA.

-In one sense, the talk today was "more of the same" behavior. In another, it was anything but. For example: She asked me if I was still there no less than 6 different times. I guess she just isn't used to me listening to what she has to say.

Well, that is an excellent change. Now what was the "more of the same" part, and what can you do differently assuming it's a negative "more of the same" begavior?

-In every relationship, there is a pursuer and a withdrawer. I have always been the pursuer, and to some extent still am. I am working on this, but due to some of the outside pressures forcing our hands today, I think we both did really well falling into our old short hand, yet not falling into our "fightin' ways".

I don't really understand what you mean here, but if you do it doesn't matter unless you have a question or want some feedback. I know you were listing positives.

-Very early on, she commented that she is very frustrated by how everyone else (i.e. her family) keeps getting involved in something that should be "just between us". I carefully, and not unkindly, pointed out that she has brought many people into a situation that was always meant to be that way. I resisted any emotional outbursts or accusations, and just made my point without bitterness or gratuitous examples. I did crib a few lines from the "not-so-great escape" chapter about the "divorce steering commitee. She was very quiet, possibly dismissive, but I don't think so. I think she was matching the truth of my words to her own experiences. Perhaps I was just "trying to be right" again, but there has to come a time for the truth, right?

Well, the time for the "i'm right, you're wrong" truth is definitely later, if ever. But if you made some points from DR and she listened to them and considered them, fine. Good even. Don't hold your breath that she'll all of a sudden come around, but it does sound to me like she is still thinking and sorting things out, and that is good. The seeds of doubt may already be in the ground.

-For the first time in well over a month, I have admitted that I do not want a divorce. Never have. Hopefully not too much damage was done last night, but I feel really confident that (at least a few times) she has wanted to hear this recently. Maybe just a power thing, maybe not.

Well, this is good. It is important for her to know you don't want a divorce so fine. If she knows, don't go out of your way to say it again. If she asks or fishes for it, tell her. Keep it short, sweet and simple.

-I was able to point out some boundaries for myself, unapologetically and with kindness. May not help the chances of saving my marriage, but I feel good about it.

What boundaries? Anything other than the A? How did she react? What did she say?

Well, I feel better. How 'bout you?

I do too, but (1) I haven't read the rest of your posts yet (and you had a bunch this weekend, didn't you) and (2) who cares how I feel about your sitch?

It may be too late, but I'm back on the wagon.

Good! Welcome back!

During the good night call last night, I could tell she was expecting me to try and draw her out, or bring up something from our earlier conversation. I did not.

Excellent! Now we know you can do it!

During our earlier conversation, by the way, on the topic of trying to build something new and better together, she said "Well, I can't give you an answer now." to which I replied "Of course not, nor would I expect one. I just appreciate you thinking about it.". In the old days, that was a perfect setup for me to start hounding her incessantly for an answer. Not this time.

Aside from how well you did, and you did great!, did you hear this answer??? This is huge!! If and when I hear something like this, I'll do a backflip (and I've never done or attempted one in my life.

Anyweigh, she called this morning to let me talk to the boy, and I couldn't get to the phone. Her message said that she was getting in the shower, so I went for a run, worked out, made myself some breakfast, then called back a little more than an hour later. No answer, left a light message. She called back after another half hour, I talked to the boy, then she and I talked about, well, nothing. Just some common interests, her plans for the day with the boy, nothing much.

You need as many non-negative (and hopefully positive) interactions as you can get. You want these in her head while she is deciding whether to walk away or to listen to you (and DR) and work on things. You need to build up some goodwill, so to speak. Understand? Less volatilty, unless you want her to leave. More interactions that are pleasant, so she can imagine being with you without going crazy.

As an added bonus, she responded to my wishes for her to have a good day by putting on a really serious tone and telling me that she hopes I have a good day too.

That's a positive. Don't ignore it.

I told her I would, and I meant it (Got a friend on the way over now, we're goin to another friends party, gonna be a great day). GALing rocks.

Good PMA, and yes GALing rocks!

I was really worried for a while that I had sunk the ship completely. Maybe so, maybe not, but either way [b]I'm not giving up.
Ever.[b]

I suggest you print out the bolded part and put it in your wallet, by your phone, on your bathroom mirror, on your computer. Your anger, pride, hurt, etc. will all come back many times I suspect, but you need to recognize those for what they are and always keep your ultimate goal in mind.

Remind me, because I'm not entirely familiar with it, I guess.

Wait 48 hours before you implement any idea you have vis-a-vis your sitch, or make any grand statement that comes into your head. There is nothing to say or do that has to be said or done right now. If it truly is a good idea, it still will be in 48 hours. Ok?

But, please, do not apologize.

Ok. I thought maybe you were tiring of me.

I don't want you to think you have to help me.

I don't.

we are all learning a ton just from watching you.

Well, I hope that is true, but we are all still figuring this stuff out. BTW, at least post a hello when you're on my thread.

The common interests refered to earlier involve a sporting event happening in Europe right now. I caught the final wrap up for the day and, on a whim, sent the high points to her in a text message (I knew she would want to know, but would not be able to get the info until much later).

Wimbledon? If so, big tennis fan myself. Played in college, many years and lbs. ago.

No response, my buddy came over, we're watching a movie to kill time until we were going to head over to the party. Out of nowhere, W calls and says she and the boy are at a nearby bookstore and he needs to potty, wants to know if it's okay to come by.

They don't have a bathroom in the bookstore? Puhleease.

She showed up, the boy did his business, they hung out for a little while (we had a picnic with his toy food). She didn't seem real comfortable, but made numerous references to him coming back to stay with me (we've been trying to keep to the Monday-Tuesday plan, with limited results). In light of Friday's tensions, I took this as a possible good sign, but then I just can't afford to trust anything she says, so who knows?

So note it as a positive, but then move on. Not much else to gain from it, but a moment of feeling good and maybe some feedback on a recently executed DB strategy.

I told her I had to go meet back up with my buddy (who she realized she had run off, but I really tried to downplay that), and that she and the boy were more than welcome to stay at the house for the evening, as I would not be back until late. She declined, but I'm not sure why (Though I can certainly guess).

Who cares why? It's irrelevant to what you're doing. You made a kind offer, and you can't control her and just want her to know you are fine either way. (Sounds like you did play it cool.)

Good night call: Brief and to the point, I think she could tell I was at the party. Don't know if she cared.

Who knows, but you GAL for you and I'm sure she took note.

I have exactly 1 smoke left (which I will have before bed), and then it's back to the gum tomorrow. Wish me luck.

Good luck. Try walking. Apparently it helps quitting.

But I can hope, right?

Yes, you can.

I think I'm about ready to get off this roller coaster.

Did my earlier comments about the rollercoaster being yours make sense?

I know I'm supposed to put my needs on hold for now, but W hurt me pretty bad, and the dam is starting to leak.

What's more important? Saving your M (review that bolded language from before) or letting her know how hurt you are? We have all been hurt terribly on this board. Deal with it here, use an IC or friends, cry on you own if you need to, but dont look to W to help you heal (at least not yet). You just want to use her to make you feel better by attacking her or making her feel guilty for hurting you, but she may not care right now. And that will only decrease your chances of reaching your ultimate goal. BTW,I'm sorry you got hurt. Really. Been there, felt that. Don't let those emotions get you off track for your ultimate goal.

Before it devolved into a fight, Thursday night's conversation contained an admission regarding all the hurtful things she had said to me. Friday's call contained more of the same hurtful things.

I doubt you will get resolution on these hurtful things any time soon, if ever. Let it go. It doesn't matter. Focus on turning you into the person you want to be (what does that entail, BTW?) and on DBing so that you can save your M and build the R you want with her for both of you and your son.

But I digress. My PMA is really shaky right now, and I'm not helping myself by reading this book about true forgiveness, because she doesn't seem to give a damn.

Newsfalsh - she doesn't! Not now, and maybe not ever. And you can't do a damn things about it. Quit trying to control her and trying to get her to fix your needs. You fix them! You control you!

I think I know part of what is going on in her head, but I can't seem to shake the "too little, too late" feeling.

If you're taling about her feeling that it's too little too late, you might, but for God's sake not overnight. You need more patience. Think year end.

Add to that the feeling that my son is being held hostage by a person of exceptionally low moral standing (who flatly refuses to acknowledge any role she may have played in our current discord) and an extremely unstable, highly emotional, uneducated, and (clinically proven) mentally deficient person (MIL, who receives disability payments for a trumped up "mental condition").

Explain what you mean by this "holding hostage." Is she denying you (equal) access to your son? Did I miss this?

She isn't really crazy, but does seem to be having trouble with the emotional burden she has been placed under.

Well, be honest. It's tough stuff. Can't you see that this would not be easy - to be in her shoes, given where she is mentally and emotionally. Did you think she wants to make her life hell/miserable? What drove her to this point? You, at least in part? What exactly has been your role in getting to this point? There was a role, right?

In short, I'm reaching the end of my rope. I did tell W that I don't want a divorce, and promised myself long ago that she would have to file if she really wanted one, but my resolve is faltering. Badly.

48 hours. Recognize how your emotions are driving you. You need to get control of them. They are taking on a life of their own. Do oyu see that? If not, think long and hard about it. It is key for all of us, but for you right now it is the KEY to everything. Your sitch, and your own happiness/life.

I'm starting to fantasize about starting the process myself, as early as tomorrow.

Oh please. Give me a break. Go back and read your bolded quote from what, 1/2 a day earlier.

I know this isn't good, but all I am hearing at this point is "You're too good for her" from my friends, family, etc..., and "You're a bum, W is perfect" from her side of the aisle. Grrrrr.

Neither side is helping you. You can't control her side, but you sure can ignore it. As for your side, you can do what I did with my parents (who, like your family/friends can't stand to see you go through this and want to help), which was to tell them I appreciated their concern, but that I had decided to fight for my M for at least the rest of the year, and i did not need them challenging that decision becauese it is hard enough as it is. They understood.

Yes, this is largely just me venting

Vent away, here, all you want. And if it is just truly venting (but recall your Fri. night convo), ignore some of the responses.

but there is one other thing that just keeps digging into the back of my brain: I purchased the "Mastery guide to saving your marriage" prior to finding DR (The Guide cribs heavily from Michelle's work, an gives her appropriate credit, which is how I eventually found DR). Within the guide is a section devoted to decoding some of the statements made by WAS's. One statement W made several times was that she is "Looking for Love". According to the guide, this shows her to be one of the most dangerous people to have a relationship with, as it shows that she is seriously (and possibly irrepairably) damaged inside. Something is missing that does not allow her to realize that all love must come from within, sentencing her to a lifetime of searching outside of herself for something that simply cannot be found there.

I think most of our WAs's don't realize that love/happiness come from within, and largely we are all waiting for them to realize that. That book sounds crazy to say possibly irrepairbaly, etc. I think I'd just lose that thought if i were you.

My (probably extremely foolhardy) hope is that she used the phrase as an excuse, fostered by OM's coaching to do anything she could to get away from me. I'm still terrified, though, both for my son and for myself.

Ignore that statement of hers. It was alien spew.

I was afraid I was going to have to start "playing for the other team", what with all the help Nomo's been giving me. Now I can start fantasizing about you instead.

First of all, that [censored] is not funny. Second, I called dibs on Sunny long ago, so back off.

Second, I want you to know that I was asking for her forgiveness, not offering any.

Ok. Big difference. Guess I missed that.

Played a little rough with her: She asked if there were any days that I wanted him this week (um, all of them?). I responded by saying that this still her show (I think she really hates it when I say that, because it makes it pretty unavoidable for her to look at what she is doing/has done), so it is really up to her.

What??? I would have said all of them. How does this answer you gave (it's your call) lead you to the conclusion that she or MIL are holding your son hostage? What am I missing? You need to put your son's needs first and foremost, and that includes seeing you a lot. Don't use this issue to try to guilt W about her actions/decisions. Do right by your kid first and foremost.

I also laid down the fact that MIL probably doesn't want to see me right now,

That's MIL's problem. He's your kid. Don't make him suffer (eg, not see you) because MIL is an idiot.

offering to let me come to MIL's house to visit. I didn't really bother to respond to that.

You could have said thanks. I think W was trying to be nice.

The "still your show" comment also had a veiled threat in it

No kidding. Not to mention the attempted control, guilt, etc.

I am going to sleep on it, probably give it the full 48 hour treatment, but I am getting closer and closer to putting legal action into motion. I will not warn her ahead of time, just let the sheriff show up at her door.

To do what? What am I missing?

I know I promised myself that I wouldn't do this

But you'll just break that promise to yourself because it feels right at this moment??

and that I should accept that this sitch has to be on her schedule

BINGO, if you want to attain your ultimate goal (review bolded language above!).

I'm really having some issues about my S and what is in his best interest right now. Again, I will not do anything without taking the time to consider all angles, but it seems to be about time to do something about this "hostage situation".

Is this the hostage situation where she asked you when you wanted him and you said it was her decision?

P.S. Tone of call on my end was very bright and cheerful. She sounded the same, but that means virtually nothing.

It's better than the alternative. If you could string, say, three months of these kind of interactions togther, she might start to think life with you could work. Right now, there are way too may stressful exchanges. Those need to stop. Do you see that? Let go of the rope (eg, you two are engaging in tug a war). Or stop fighting her and the sitch all the time. Accept it. It is reality. It's waht she wants. It is what it is. It will take a lot longer thanyou want to fix, if at all. Calm down, relax, sit back, do positive things and see what happens.

Good story on your milestone (anniversary--5/20). Thanks for sharing.

I have just realized/admitted to myself that I'm pretty ticked off.

Yep. Recognizing it is the first step. Not letting it control and define you is the next step.

During Thursday's R talk, I asked her to forgive me (for my failings, for anything I've ever said that caused her pain, and for having made a habit of treating her how I wanted to be treated rather than how she wanted to be treated). She said that she forgives me, and I thanked her for saying so, but mainly just thanked her for hearing me out (because I know she still hasn't forgiven me). She of course asked if I could forgive her, and I replied that I really wanted to (I have learned, whether she has or not, that true forgivenss has to be earned. I was just trying to open the door for her to step up and take what I want so badly to give her).

Forgiveness is not for the person who is forgiven. It's for the person who forgives. And it is a simple decision. (Michele wrote about this, maybe in one of the linked articles on the home page. YOU SHOULD READ IT.) Maybe if you decide to forgive her, if you decide to givde yourself that gift of forgiving her, you'll be able to control your anger and hurt that are clouding your thought process so much.

Anywho, in the Friday R talk (which shouldn't have happened, but I feel was probably unavoidable considering MIL's actions)

So MIL controls you? Not you?

she made reference to her unhappiness in being unable to satisfy me physically.

Well that was big of her. Must have been tough to say. And if she didn't vare about you still, I doubt she would have. So there's a lot of reason for hope right there.

Here's my plan:
On the next R talk opportunity (she will have to initiate, I just want to be prepared), I plan on asking her to take some time before answering, if she chooses to answer at all, but that I would like to know what I could have done to make her feel that I was more satisfied with her efforts in our physical relationship. Hopefully, she will give me something that I can use at a later date to make her feel better about that facet of our relationship, but the very least I hope she will know that I didn't mean to hurt her in that fashion. Maybe it will work, maybe not, but it seems like a good thing to try.

I like the way your thinking, but how's this. Why don't you first come up with three things you could have done differently on your own? And instead of hoping she knows you didn't mean to hurt her in that fashion, why don't you just tell her (I assume that you're sorry that what you did (your actions/words?) made her feel like you weren't happy with her physically (I am assuming this is true, that you weren't unhappy)?

As to the camera, I plan on telling her that I am very sorry I failed to live up to her expectations (though I'm not sure I should be, this is kind of true)

This sounds loaded to me.

but that the camera has given me a lot of personal pleasure and remains the finest gift I have ever received from anyone (all very true).

Why don't you leave it at this? If she is let down on the camera, that's her problem. You can't control her (and how she feels about it). Let her deal with that.

Let me know if you see any holes in my thinking.

Now, I'd like to vent about why I am so durn angry [. . . ]
W could not afford to take the morning off to watch her S while her Mother went to the doctor, but she can take the better part of a week off to get laid later this month.

Ok, fine. I'd be angry to. It's ok to be angry/hurt. It's human. Just don't act on it. You have to accept W's choices about OM as her own choices. You can't control it. It is what it is. My W chose to tell another man she loved him. That crushed me, but now I accept it. It happened. It's my/our reality. It sucked. I think it was an awful thing for her to do. A mistake. But I can't do a single goddamn thing about it. So I try not to think about it or worry about it any more than I have to. Put it out of your mind. It takes time to do this, but you can and the faster you do the better off you'll be.

And she had the nerve to try and lecture me on why I'm being selfish by not kicking myself out of the house. I won't talk to her about this, I know it would be DB death, but I hope you can see why I am questioning whether or not this is a person I really want to have in my life. Sure, she has good traits, but this one is pretty hard to swallow.

Ignore this. This is her problem, if she can't see this. And she probably can see why. It's just not your problem. And the person she is today is not who you want back, but hopefully she'll come around and learn some things too.

I'm really stuck on the thought that she is just not good for him.
Not because she sleeps around, not because she won't consider what is best for in him in balance for what is best for her, but simply because I am so wounded. I admit that. I just want to protect him from the pain that she so coldly put me through, and continues to do.

From my view, this alone doesn't suggest she is not good for him. Maybe I am missing something, but if the fact that what she is doing hurts you and breaks up a family means she cannot be a good parent, then none of our spouses can be good parents and I'm just not ready to accept that. Do I think our S has hurt my kids? Yes, I do. Do I think a D would hurt my kids? Yes, I do. Do I think that my W is responsible for that hurt by her choices/actions? Yes, I do. Do I think my kids will be better off with less vontact with their mother? No, I do not. My kids need both of us, a lot, as much as we can be there for them, in fact.

During one of the calls last week, she made the comment that "She hates hurting people, she hates hurting me, she hates hurting our son". It was everything, and I do mean everything, I could do to not scream into the phone "THEN JUST STOP DOING IT!".

If you were her, how would explain why she is doing what she is doing? Give it your best shot. Seriously. Take the time to try to make her case. If you do, it may make you less angry. It may enable you to think more logically, and less emotionally. I suspect she feels like she has no choice but to hurt all these people, including herself, and she feel sterrible about it. Can you empathize with her?

Atlas: Take this advice very carefully, but for a outside view on your sitch, I'd consider the whole "Do exactly the opposite of what you think you should do" approach. I haven't had the courage myself, but you may have that rare sitch where, if you take a real offensive position and played absolute hardball with her, you may find her very willing to reverse her thinking. Remember, be very careful with that advice.

Atlas - save the dynamite for after the less radical approaches have proven ineffective. Your response showed you are on top of this.

I've seriously thought about hitting her with her "real bills." Send her on her way. She would be floored, and it sounds stupid, but one of two things will happen. I think I'm too afraid to act at this point, since I think it will just confirm her decision.

You're right. It might confirm her decision. And if it "scared" her into coming around, would that be the reason you'd want her to come back?

One thing I have going for me, is I did my weekly goals and review of last week. I found a whole new tone from last Sunday to this one. I think I keep doing what I'm doind for a while and see if the positives keep coming.

Awesome! And solid advice to WC, and good observations about his W and sitch. I agree.

Ok, that took forever. Sorry again for mot proofing. Hope it helps.

Nomopo