Love, what is it, is it real, does it matter?

[toughlover]

I have the strength to go on despite my W not asking forgiveness or saying she loves me, and part of that strength is due to the advice you've given me.

Well I guess for me the crux of the matter is what you mean by "go on."

I had no problem staying married to my wife, being a good husband, and all that even when she couldn't tell me she loved me. We love God by keeping his commandments; it isn't emotional...it's a decision. To me, the fact that she was willing to repent and even attempt to live up to her commitment was more meaningful and satisfying than the ILY's and emotional stuff. That's not to say the ILY's and emotional stuff aren't important; they are! I agonized over the loss of that, but that level of agony paled in comparison to what I would have been going through if she'd left us or continued to see the OM.

But this wasn't simply a choice like choosing two different kinds of laundry soap. This was huge and would permanently alter the course of our family's life. She chose to alter it for the better by staying together and giving it her best. Since that time, since she's been away from OM, she's seen more clearly how horribly she treated our whole family while pretending to be the "good one." She's seen more clearly the way she started telling herself lies and believing them. That's why I am able to believe in her again, and I think it's important for husbands and wives to believe in each other to a certain degree.

You perservered when you thought it was over and she was seeing the OM.

She never saw the OM again (as far as I know) once she confessed to me and agreed to recommit. It was one of the conditions I laid out when I told her I would give her my absolute best but only if she weren't dishonoring our family by continuing an adulterous relationship. And by that I mean I wouldn't abide her finding excuses to take the kids to their friends' houses or manipulate their social lives in order to see her OM (which I found out she had indeed been doing, pre-bomb). Of course, we moved far enough away that it would have been much more difficult to carry out.

And I never said I'd leave or that she had to leave, or that I wouldn't continue to be a loving husband and father...only that I would fulfill my obligations but that she couldn't expect me to go the extra mile if she were seeing someone else, or communicating with someone else.

She chose to follow my lead. But it was rough going for a long time. Many months. She claimed to have no feelings for me at all for a long time, but she still did her best to live up to her side of the covenant, and I did the same. It became a new adventure. But the feelings didn't come til much later.

I felt bad all the time for the first couple of months. Then I went through a long period where I felt good a little and bad a lot...then she started changing as well, being more affectionate. The I love you's came back after several months. And I start feeling good a lot and bad only some of the time.

Now it's good most of the time. I have moments, though. Vivid memories of lies she told; anger, hurt pride, etc.

I've gotten to where I can keep it from affecting me too bad. That's only possible because we've been doing what's necessary to improve our marriage, our family, and our life together.

For mature people, I think, the emotions are the byproduct of the decision, not the motivation for the decision.

The thing that's important is that, sure, I hoped in an abstract way we could have a good marriage again. But that wasn't the motivation for my choice...although I wanted it to be. But she just looked me in the eye one day just after the bomb dropped and said something like, "I guess it's possible I could be attracted to you and have feelings for you again, but I can't even imagine that happening. I'm open to it, but I sure don't see it."

That's a tough thing to hear. My response was simply that I realized that, and that she could leave anyway someday, but I decided that my vow had to mean something, that it did mean something, and even if she rejected it I was going to remain faithful because that was my commitment...to her, God, my kids, and myself.

It wasn't pretty. It was pure agony for me, and I struggled, I sometimes said and did the wrong thing, and I sometimes was tempted to a variety of things. Then, when she really invested herself completely in our marriage again after 8 or 9 months, I got really resentful and even pushed her away for a while. Nothing prepared me for the resentment I began to feel so strongly once I got what I thought I wanted.

But I got my wife back. Our family is better and our kids are happier. Most importantly, our marriage is getting stronger than it's ever been, and we're both more secure in it and willing to fight for it if need be. The problems we have these days are just the normal ones most families encounter. Everything's been real good for a long time now.

[MaxP]

my W is trying to clear her mind to understand what she feels and wants. She does not feel an attraction to me, or at least feels that what she feels isn't what she should be feeling (if you get what I mean).

I'm in the same boat, more or less. Too bad our spouses aren't doing the thinking and reading we are and learning that love is a choice.

So we are DBing to make it easier for them to make the choice to love us.

Some interesting issues came up yesterday in our joint C session. She clearly doesn't like thinking about what is going. We also identified some patterns of behaviour between us that would cause a strain. Particularly that she feels she has lost her identity, has changed in what she wants and that she feels like a parent to me. I don't think she sees that there is any point in me being part of her future other than as a potential friend.

[LoginName]

Max,
Sorry friend. I know that hurts. I don't know how long you've been doing this, but for me it's getting easier. OK, she wants to be just friends. I can do that. Maybe you can too. I don't NEED my W to NEED me. H@ll, I don't even NEED her to like me. I want her to, and I want her to love me, but I don't need it.

The tricky part for me is the inbetween, ambiguous stuff. But we can do that too.

A thought I had driving in this morning - she, your W, is going to C with you. She is talking to you. She is willing to be friends. That's pretty possitive, all in all. Patience. See what happens.

[LoginName]

Love should be taught in schools, because the vast majority of us are pretty ignorant of it.

There is a spiritual aspect to love. Some may describe it as following God's will, others may call it something else, but it's there. Maybe this spiritual aspect is another evolutionary trick for the continuation of the species, but it's real and important none the less. Another way to say this, perhaps, is that it's part of Maslow's heirarchy of needs, and it's near the top.

Love does is real, and it does matter.

[MaxP]

Max,
A thought I had driving in this morning - she, your W, is going to C with you. She is talking to you. She is willing to be friends. That's pretty possitive, all in all. Patience. See what happens.

She actually didn't see the point in joint C at all, I guess she thought it was going through the motions (probably for me). However, some of the stuff we eventually got on to has to be seriously affecting our R and could be at the root of our difficulties. I can't give up hope yet, although I see very little want in her. However, change is always happening and most of the time we can't predicit it's direction. As you say, wait and see ...

It is also true to say that my own counseling is very revealing. I have left the previous two sessions feeling very positive and at peace. Some of the issues that lie at the heart of me, one in particular, also lie at the centre of some of her issues with us and how we see life. If I can overcome that (just for me) then my life and who I am will change quite dramatically.

Finally, I will at the very least manage my negative emotions so that they do not destroy our friendship. I am absolutely determined to do that and fully believe that I can. Hate or negative interactions will be of no benefit to my mental health or our future feelings.

I will just have to get her to fall in love with me again ...

[MaxP]

... to make that choice.

[tyler]

please take a look at my thread.... what just happened to me?!?!?!

the choice to love just got tougher.

[LoginName]

Listened to part of a radio program last night. Wish I would have caught the whole show, because it was really intersting. It was about the placebo affect. One example they gave, and I think it was from the experience of the doctor who came up with the placebo affect, was during war, WWII. Anzio beach, the medic was running out of morphine, so he started asking the wounded if they were in pain. 75% said they weren't and didn't need morphine. Why?

His theory was that pain was relevent to the circumstances. When a soldier was shot, after realizing he wasn't going to die, he started thinking about how he'd get to go home, how he'd be a hero, etc. A civilian, not in war time, is shot and thinks about how he'll pay the bills, what will happen to his family, etc. The soldier feels much less pain.

We've been shot (bombed!?). What's our story, our circumstances? If we look at it as positively as we can, our pain will be less. We've been shot. Now we have a chance to fix our lives. Now we can grow and become better people. Yes it hurts, but the outcome will be good. This kind of thinking is true, and it reduces the pain.

Part of the show was about curing with Hypnotism, and faith healing. The crux of the matter was believe or faith. The human mind is capable of amazing feats of healing. I think this can apply to us too. If we believe we will be strong, happy, better (and why shouldn't we believe it?) we will be.

What we can't do is affect or control how others think and feel. No matter how much we have faith that our marriage will work, that she will love us again, we can't make it happen, no matter how positive the thinking. The lesson is to concentrate on ourselves, what we can control and change. Then do it. Be positive, beleive it.

Interesting stuff to me. What do you all think?

[MaxP]

I think that that is very true.

[MaxP]

Tyler,

I can't imagine what you must be going through right now. My only advice would be to keep talking and writing about what you feel to get it out of your system (or at least relieve the pressure). Then focus on yourself and your kids. Do what you need to do to keep yourself sane and rational and to prevent something stupid from happening that you might regret later. I know that it will seem incredibly hard, but you still can choose what to feel, or at least make small tweaks to your feelings even now. Also, seek out other men who have been in the same position and talk to them (I think said you have).

I know that love is a choice and that seems impossible right now. I think your wife has made an unfair and unsustainable request of you in wanting both worlds, but that can be dealt with later.

Keep strong and look after yourself and your kids and try not to act too quickly.

If you need to vent anger then exercise and while it may seem absurd, don't blame your wife or yourself. You are not at fault.

Max