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[Gone Dancin']

We are both conflict avoiders so while "peacefully co-existing" the resentments and hurts continued to grow and fester to the point where I emotionally divorced him.

If it was a peaceful coexistence, what was it about H that caused you to resent him? What caused the hurt? Just wondering because I think your reasons could help some of us understand the WAS's POV better.

was a last ditch effort on my part. But I waited way way too long! This is where as a WAW I feel that I failed. Because I let things get so far gone before I took drastic action

You can't be hard on yourself for this -- you did what you thought was right at the time, and did it because you thought/hoped/wished that H would at some point come around (I think my W did the same thing, though she never wanted to do counseling -- she hates counseling because of bad childhood experienes with it). You gave it your all, and are still doing so -- a WAS that is still willing to consider reconciliation has a lot of respect from me, as well as probably all of the other LBS's on these boards. Don't think you failed -- you can't fail if you don't give up (I think Michele says that somewhere). However, if you do all you can here too in your last ditch effort, and H still doesn't come around, I would respect your decision to move on. We all have a breaking point (even LBS's), so at that point giving up might mean that H failed you, NOT the other way around.

Keep plugging away and making sure H knows and is willing to respect your boundaries if he wants a chance at saving your M. Have you considered making H a list of things that you need from him now and in the future ("now" for sure) so he has some guidance. IMO, he just doesn't think giving you space is productive -- he sees it as telling you he doesn't have an investment in the M, and also that it is allowing you the opportunity to move on. He's scared to give you space and time -- trust me on this one, because I was the same way.

GD

[waw1978]

My big beefs with my H:

Thinks my family is beneath him, that they are inferior. Since I am part of that family by extension he thinks I am inferior. Treats my parents with disrespect and is not supportive of my relationship with them. Would not allow my D4 to spend time with them. (my fault as I let him get away with this for quite some time)

On the opposite side, thinks his own family is perfect & superior.

Controlling and jealous. Doesn't trust me. Punishes me for spending time with family and friends by being passive aggressive and nasty towards me for days after an outing. I am talking a once a month night out with my friends, totally rediculous.

Calls me immature because I still want to spend time with my friends on occasion. Can't stand that the gals and I go out dancing or have movie nights once a month.

Thinks I am a bad mother because my whole life does not revolve around our daughter. She is a major part of my life, but unlike some women my children and my role as mother does not define me.

I could go on and on. These are the tip of the iceburg. The really big problem is that he was not like this before we got married. He was a social guy, lots of pals. Would go out dancing with me and my friends & their guys. All of sudden we get married and he does a complete 180 (not in a good way). He withdraws from his friends, no more social activities, becomes insansly controlling and jealous, manipulative and downright nasty at times. I try to be a "good wife" and try to be the person he wants me to be...and it nearly drives me to have a breakdown.

My friends joke that I dated his representative. That was just an act he put on to snag me. Then as soon as we got married here comes the real him.

It sounds rediculous but I have never heard of a person undergoing such a change. Needless to say his complete personality shift added to my need to please him ruined our marriage. Basically after going to IC because I was convinced there was something wrong with me I realized the problem was really that I was denying who I was on a very basic level and that was causing a lot of my unhappiness, depression and anxiety. As soon as I recognized this I felt a wave of relief.

DH admits that he completely changed and that he expected me to change as well. I a afraid he never loved me for me but who he thought he could turn me into. Just like I am worried that they guy I feel in love with, never existed in the first place.

[Not Much Left]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh!
WAW, you are describing my W and our sitch to a "T". The family part, check, controlling/jealous check, night out check. Oh boy, I wish I would have talked to you sooner!

OK, I think I said this bfore and agree w/ GD, he needs a list or set out parameters. No wishy washy crap, especially on the space thing. One thing that might go a long way, I think you mention that he did not notice till you did this (paraphrasing), guess what, he will not do the space thing unless you give him at least some hint that it has to happen and is a good thing, not what he perceives. Again, I have been there and still struggling with that one myself after 4 mos Separated, IC, and DBing let alone not having any insight at all!

Hope this helps and I actually believe the man you married is in there. He does need to realize he needs to get back to that person. Any other issues we need to know about, anything even suble might help us understand why he may have pulled back socially. Mine was a combo of a lot of work trying to build a life for my family whom I love dearly and physical issues. I did the same thing and presto, I am your husband!

Have faith in yourself and maybe do one thing, try to take off the blinders (anger, resentment etc) and see if he is willing to listen without that underlying tone which I am sure is there. It is definitely a two way street on all of this at the end of the day. You are not giving up which as GD said is admirable and we all comend you.

Thanks for your insights, you have no idea how valuable you are to us all.

CVA

[waw1978]

I have no idea what caused his sudden change.

I can also add that he was particularly obsessed with my looks & weight and told me on any occasion possible that I needed to lose weight and get back into shape and how unattractive I was to him. Granted I gained 40lbs while pregnant but I lost it all within a year or so. Our sex life is non-existent because he does not find me attractive. We have been intimate 1 time in the last 8 months. Prior to that maybe 5-6 times in the prior years. His constant rejections have decimated my self esteem. Needless to say now that I am leaving he claims that he finds me hot now and isn't sure why he didn't for the last few years. but I have no interest in resuming any type of physical relationship at this time.

Anyway, I can assure you that I am very attractive and fit and I take very good care of myself, my skin and dress fashionably. My looks have never been an issue except for him. My friends think I am anorexic because of the amount of weight I have lost and how I workout/jog/do yoga daily. I used to be a print model 7 ring card girl for boxing, jobs that I was paid for because of my looks and physique. I never should have let his poison ruin my self esteem, but it did.

One of the things I am doing for myself is relaxing my diet a bit (hello cheesecake!) and only working out when I really feel like it. Just not doing those things to please him anymore. I am trying to feel comfortable in my own skin again. Cause all i see now, is a fat unattractive person even though common sense should tell me its him that had the problem not me.

Not sure if any of that helps but I know that his 'verbal assaults" were one thing that helped in the collapse of our relationship. I did not find those comments constructive in anyway.

[stewart10]

Wow WAW. I don't know what to say. It must have been extremely difficult to have to deal with that type of emotional abuse. I am surprised that it took so long for you to get tired of it. I think that your H probably did not mean any of what he said. Although there really is no excuse for him to say those types of things. You must really have loved him at some point to stick with him and still want this to work out-as I think you still do. I think you are in the right frame of mind to start to rebuid your self esteem. That is really the most important thing for you right now. You have to make sure that you get back to the person that you want to be.

Your H wants to be with you. He is just terrified of the thought that you are going to move on without him. He is not approaching the problem from the right direction. He needs to understand that if he continues to act in this manner, he is going to lose you forever. Just try and be patient with him. I know where he is coming from and it was hard for me to realize the begging and pleading was not having the effect that I desired. Now I realize it and am afraid that it may be too late.

Have the "verbal assaults" stopped? I don't see how it can work if you are still subject to that environment.

[waw1978]

Hey Stew thank you for giving me the other side of coin perspective

When I pointed out that particular behavior and outlined what toll it had taken on me he immediately started telling me how hot he thinks I am and that he had no idea why he wasn't attracted to me before. I think its all bologna. Part of his quick fix routine. For whatever reason, I just didn't do it for him and don't think that its changed. I mean my girlfriends actually think he could be gay! There isn't a man that I have ever dated that didn't want me physically. It was a huge blow to endure mentally over the several years. But I am working on that part. Recover the self esteem is part of my 180/Gal.

[Gone Dancin']

waw,

The intimacy sounds like it was a sensitive issue (and I'm sorry the way he beat you down about your physical appearance -- sounds like he really didn't have justification for it the way you describe yourself!). Did you feel tension about the intimacy on a regular basis? I can see how you would have resentment for him more and more by what you have described throughout your last few posts, but hopefully he will recognize his mistakes and begin correcting them.

[Iamworththetime]

Waw, when you left, did you really care about what was going to happen? What I mean is, my W told her forend that she felt she wanted to leave, but she was scared to, she hasn't contacted a lawyer because she chickensh*t (her words), if you relly wanted out, would you care about that stuff?

[JustDontKnow]

WAW,

Thanks for all your cander and thoughts and comments. I know as a LBS that my wife asking for "space" was a very vague request to me and completely counterproductive to "fixing our marriage." One of the most descriptive statements that she made at the time of the bomb tho' was "I need to work on the 'me' before I can work on the 'we'." Unfortunately the trama of the bomb was so great to me emotionally and mentally that I didn't understand what she was saying until after she was no longer willing to "work on the we."

I don't know what the best way to explain this concept of "space" to an LBS, but I do know that anything you CAN do to show effort and work on your marriage while you sort out your feels and yourself and have your "space" the better from an LBS perspective. Seeing my wife doing anything positive about our relationship or putting in any effort went a long ways to counterbalance the issues surrounding her need to withdrawl further to sort out her own issue. It is hard for me as an LBS to just watch my wife run further and further away in the pursuit of space or in reaction to my pursuing her, it just leaves a big vacuum where our marriage was/should be. Anything that can be done to keep some flames or smoke alive in your marriage while you sort things out or while he works on himself, etc. the better. Personally I've found that working on myself and my marriage are in many ways intergral to each other since in a long term marriage I've affected my marriage and my marriage has affected me, we're inter-related and I don't think the health thing to do is to have to completely break that marriage and inter-relationship in order to fix myself (or for my spouse to fix herself). Anything that can be possibly done within the context of your marriage and your relationship the better. My wife attended 2 MC sessions with my IC, even tho' my wife didn't seem to be at all looking for answers to sort out our marriage, it did help me in my IC work to have her there talking about me and my issues, my wife knows me better than myself. Even if we made little to no progress MC-wise it certainly helped me personally and I would think her personally.

Anyhow, not sure if I got my thoughts written out in an understandable manner, but the bottom line for me as an LBS, trying to understand my wife coming to me and saying "our marriage is broken" and then I try to do everything to rebuild it and reconnect while my wife is busy cutting all the connections and breaking what is left in the marriage in her quest for space and breathing room and self-discovery. There has to be a more cooperative manner to do what each of you needs without more destruction, but I'm not sure what all the answers are since I only have perspective from my LBS POV.

Thanks again WAW,
-JDK

[Nomopo]

Is this part of your "plan"?

Yes, but you know me. My plan has to be perfect before I pull the trigger. Thank you Pusher Nomo.

And yes, GD, you can join me on the Dancing Bears. I'm thinking four, each with a letter from "Nomo" under it.

I would be blown away if my DH got a tattoo! I have been sort of the rebel of the family with the ink & peircings while he still have virgin skin...

Ok, now you're just turning me on.

For me, physical space is required because part of what got me here was peaceful co-existance. Even though I was extremely unhappy & dissatisfied with our M I stuck around long after I should have because we were able to function on a day to day basis without confrontation. So in my case, this actually lead to more disdain for my H. We are both conflict avoiders so while "peacefully co-existing" the resentments and hurts continued to grow and fester to the point where I emotionally divorced him. He didn't want to take action when I spoke up. The only thing that got his attention was when I said I was leaving. This was a last ditch effort on my part. [. . .] My H basically has to start from scratch. I have nothing left in my heart.

As I explained to H, I need to *want* to see him, date him and be near him. Right now, I have no interest and seeing him everyday with all of those annoyances ain't cutting it. Being away and having my own space I can start to miss him (I hope).

This was so helpful!!! Thanks, as usual.

you can't fail if you don't give up (I think Michele says that somewhere)

Actually, Nomo is the one who says this, but I stole it from a movie. Any guesses?

It sounds rediculous but I have never heard of a person undergoing such a change. Needless to say his complete personality shift added to my need to please him ruined our marriage.

Well, in this whole process I have discovered that I underwent a complete change from the person my WAW fell in love with. Let's call that part of me "Fun Nomo" or "Carefree Nomo." This was the guy who thought the most important thing in the world was to be happy. This guy listened to lots of music, liked to party to feel good, tie dyed some shirts, like to be out in nature, etc. I would say Fun Nomo was in the driver seat more than 50% of the time. Now there's another part of me, "Pusher Nomo," who is in charge of getting things done. Pusher Nomo brings great focus, some would say blinders, to my tasks, or my to do list. Pusher Nomo isn't bad per se. Pusher Nomo led me to be pretty successful in school, work and athletics. But starting about the time I finished law school, Pusher Nomo started to be in the driver's seat more and more. Life as an associate in a big law firm had something to do with that. The we got married 2.5 years later, and lo and behold I felt some more responsibility, so Pusher Nomo ups his effort. And then, kids are born starting three years later, and the responsibilities of being a great dad move to the top of my list, and shortly thereafter until now I would say Pusher Nomo is running the show about 95% of the time. I just realized this in the past couple of months! Scary, huh? Quite literally, Fun Nomo wasn't around hardly at all. Even the so-called fun activities we are engaging in are on Pusher Nomo's to do list. So, yes, it can happen. And it isn't that hard to see really. The pressures of life and all. But now I am changing for me, and it will be better for my W and kids too. I just hope W is around to enjoy the rest of the show.

Anyway, I can assure you that I am very attractive and fit and I take very good care of myself, my skin and dress fashionably. My looks have never been an issue except for him. My friends think I am anorexic because of the amount of weight I have lost and how I workout/jog/do yoga daily. I used to be a print model 7 ring card girl for boxing, jobs that I was paid for because of my looks and physique. I never should have let his poison ruin my self esteem, but it did.

Again, . . . well, you know.

Later,
Nomo