Love, what is it, is it real, does it matter?

[LoginName]

Do I want her? If it were real "love", the way most people think of it, then of course you would. I guess we've determined that love isn't what most people and pop culture think it is.

Do you want her? Do I want my W? It's hard to separate all the feelings. I'm hurt. I don't want to be hurt again. If I push her away, I will stop the pain. Does that mean I don't want her? Probably not. Definitely means I don't want to be hurt again.

My pride is hurt too. I want revenge. She doesn't want me, fine, I don't want her either. I don't need her. It would be great if she wanted me and I could tell her I've changed my mind and don't want her anymore - see her do some of the crying.

If I put my pain and pride aside, yes I want her. I choose to be with her. I will be the best husband and father I can, because I want to do it.

The pain has become cleaner and healthier. It still hurts, bad. But it's my pain. It doesn't destroy me. I'm strong enough now to bear the pain and move through it. It's a good feeling. I don't need revenge. I'm stronger than that. I've forgiven and moved on. I don't gain anything by bringing her pain. It doesn't help me to give her pain.

I choose my W. I'll keep doing what I know is right and hope she chooses me too. If she doesn't, I'll cry, and I'll move on.

I would love to be infatuated with my W. Sometimes, I am a little. But that's the cupid false love we've been talking about. I bet, though, that if she and I work it out, there will be times when I am totally infatuated with her. I'm not basing my decision on that though. I'm basing it on a lasting love, between adults.

It is hard to want them back, to allow them back in, to be vulnerable again. But in a way we aren't vulnerable anymore. We know the truth now. We can be hurt again, but not like we were. It seems we need restitution too. Don't they owe us for the pain they caused?

I've read a book that says that's exactly what's needed, some kind of restitution. The book was in the context of an A. I'd love my W to make this all up to me. I can't make her do it. I can't keep my happiness on hold waiting for her to make amends. Besides, I owe her quit a bit too. In some sitches, maybe one person is almost completely at fault - maybe the other person would agree to pay some kind of restitution. I bet that's rare though.

I've been looking to see what's out there. There are lot's of lonely people looking to meet someone. There are lots of attractive people. I bet there are some that would make a great partner and friend. But each of them would have there own issues, problems and challenges. I made my choice, I'll keep working on the challenges my W and I have. I've made a promise to be with this one person. I'll keep my promise as long as I'm able.

Tyler, you're not alone. I feel ambivalent about wanting my W back at times too. Lot's of people on this site feel that way. I'm glad you're honest about it. It's good to know my feelings aren't unique in this.

So, do you want her back?

[LoginName]

Love is a choice
Love is a verb
Love is different than infatuation
You can love one person for a life time

What do you all think? Getting warm?

[tyler]

Thanks TL. Very thought provoking words/post.

I will wear it, following the course of action you lined out. I'm doing it for God and me.

[tyler]

Do I want her back?

After a few days of thought, yes.

I want her, our marriage, in the form God would have it take.

And yes, I think I like your definition.

[Sara]

I think we are on all four points. It just looks so plain when you put it that way.

[MaxP]

I was shocked at Retrouvaille when they told us "love is a decision." I thought, no way. But I have come to see that they are right. If you choose to love a person, the love will grow and you will feel the emotion.

Sara, this is what I have come to believe. I love my W more that at any stage of our 10 year R. Sometimes it completely blows me away that it is possible to feel this way after so long. It really is utterly amazing and brilliant - but it is a choice.

Very early on in our R I found something about my wife became a real problem for me and it almost ended things there and then. At the time and with my W's help we made a decision that I simply needed to get over it and leave it behind. It has never been a problem since. I think she is the most beautiful, elegant woman I have ever seen and I just don't want to be with anyone else. At least we have had that time together.

One issue or difference of opinion that I have with our current situation is that my W is trying to clear her mind to understand what she feels and wants. She does not feel an attraction to me, or at least feels that what she feels isn't what she should be feeling (if you get what I mean). So she is waiting for her feelings to tell her what is right. I, on the other hand, believe that you can act first to explore a feeling and then see if that feeling grows. You always have a choice and are able to influence your mood and feelings. You are not completely at their mercy (remind me of that when she leaves next week please!). But each to their own, she may genuinely start to miss me when she goes, or not. I just don't know. Perhaps this is a difference in the way attraction works between men and women?

I don't think that head in the clouds love feeling is a decision. I think that really is an emotion -- a passing emotion. And much as we would like to live our lives like that, we can't. Every day can't be our birthday either.

This is true - that feeling is biological and is necessary for us to be able to get together in the first place. I think it is called 'limerance'. There's a good description in Andrew Marshall's book (called ILYBANILWY). It's also a reason why so many R's fail and why affairs seem so exciting and 'better' than a long R. However, you cannot sustain that feeling beyond 1.5 - 3 years. It may come back briefly, particularly in times of crisis. So, I would say what we call 'love' really is something different to that, the trouble is that it is a poorly used term and that causes problems, particularly with our expectations of life.

I think if you go to Andrew Marshall's site there is part of the first chapter on-line ( Andrew Marshall http://www.andrewgmarshall.com). This discusses these stages of a R, and also other phases.

Max

[toughlover]

tyler, LN...let me clarify something just in case you don't have the full picture of my sitch....

I do believe that if we have committed ourselves to our wives, we have an obligation to love them unconditionally. If you're a Christian, we even have to do that for our enemies.

That doesn't mean that we will always have real intimiate closeness...but I think that it DOES mean we have to be willing and open to the closeness...we just may not be able to expect it and certainly can't demand it...nor should we give it to someone who isn't going to protect it and cherish it.

One of the prime reasons we're doing so well right now really has a lot to do with my wife: she confessed to me, she repented, she committed herself to seeking God's will for her life and doing her best to have the best marriage w/me that we were capable of having; she also had compassion and sympathy for me and the position she put me in, and recognized that she did indeed "owe" me something (namely...transparency and honesty). But that was her decision. It was also her decision for a period of time (several weeks to a few months) be very specific about where she was or would be, and to keep me aware of her schedule changing.

In short, we enacted a "trust, but verify" agreement whereby she was willing to keep me updated and I was allowed to ask about her whereabouts and we'd talk if I became uneasy about something.

In the early days (first 3-4 months) this was important. Over time...even almost from the beginning, I really got to where I didn't want her to feel like she had to do that all the time...but I think we only got to that point because she was willing to do that to begin with.

In other words, it told me she was serious.

I guess what I mean to say is that I do think there's a difference between being a strong, loving spouse who chooses to remain committed and honor his/her spouse despite the other spouse's response, and a doormat who craves attention and whatever from his/her spouse who just doesn't seem to care.

I personally couldn't do that on the hope that my wife would really want me again someday. I could only do that by recognizing that, ultimately, my commitment to her was really just a part of my commitment to God and myself and my children.

Not knowing what would happen, that is what I decided to do. And it paid off for me very quickly after that because I learned how to be faithful and constant in the midst of a lot of darkness...about what the future would hold, about what my wife would do, all of it.

Paul writes in Ephesians that husbands are to love their wives as Christ loves the church, and that wives must respect their husbands.

I believe that any husband and wife who commit themselves to that will succeed if they choose it every day. And I believe that for mature people who've known each other a long time, the emotions follow the decision as long as both are on board.

We just have a natural tendency to predict the future from the past, and that works to a degree. But when a husband and wife commit themselves to discovering a better relationship between them...by doing what's right and being what's right...there's no way to predict what will happen or how it will feel. At least, that's been my experience.

But I don't think it really happens until each spouse commits to doing what's right and being what's right and getting strong as an individual (because strong individuals, ultimately, aren't liars and cheaters). And that's the rub.

It takes two to make it the best it can possibly be, but we don't need anyone's help (aside, perhaphs, God's) to choose what's right no matter what.

[LoginName]

It does seem so plain, and I'm not quite ready to give up on the flash and glamour. Maybe there is more? Maybe it's enough. Maybe it's plain but profound?

[LoginName]

my W is trying to clear her mind to understand what she feels and wants. She does not feel an attraction to me, or at least feels that what she feels isn't what she should be feeling (if you get what I mean).

I'm in the same boat, more or less. Too bad our spouses aren't doing the thinking and reading we are and learning that love is a choice.

So we are DBing to make it easier for them to make the choice to love us.

[LoginName]

TL, thanks, and you're a lucky guy. You are lucky that your W feels the way she does and is working at it the way she is. I envy you. I know you've had some challenges, I guess she has too.

I think your path is good, and it sounds like it is right for you. However, from reading on this site, I don't think anyone should give up if their W isn't "serious" or doesn't seem to be. Especially with infidelity. I'd love my W to do like yours did, and allow me to monitor her phone, etc. But that won't work for her. It took me some time and pain and thought, but I can live with not having her show she is serious in that way. I think many on these boards are in the same boat. I have the strength to go on despite my W not asking forgiveness or saying she loves me, and part of that strength is due to the advice you've given me.

I personally couldn't do that on the hope that my wife would really want me again someday.

TL, I think you did do this. You perservered when you thought it was over and she was seeing the OM. Maybe some of us are still in that stage, even if the A is over.

You said something not long ago about how one of the deciding factors was you realizing that she may leave you, and you'd survive, and more importantly that you could choose to leave too. That's powerful. That's how I feel. I've chosen to be her husband and to love her, but I can let her go, and I can go if I choose too.

I'm not being a doormat. I don't think others are either, although it's a fine line, and many, many get trapped in the cycle you pointed out; action to get a reaction from the spouse, when the focus has to be taken off of the spouse and onto ourselves. Wear the ring or not - do it 'cause you want to not to see the affect. Be a good husband - not to make her love you, but because You want to. Right? That's the idea, IMHO.

From my view point (limited as it is), your W is stellar. She felt terrible, found someone who made her happy, came back to you, faced your rath, faced the condemnation of friends and church, struggled through her feelings that she no longer loved you (acted 'as if' she did?) faced crisis with health and your son, this has been a hard, tough job for her. She has really tried. My guess is you helped her through this, but that at times, you pushed her away too.

All our sitches are similar, but all different too. You have a strong, amazing wife. Some of us have Ws that are weaker, less mature, less forgiving. I think your's and her faith has helpeld you both. But we all find our own way in the end. The basics of DBing apply regardless, how they are put into practice may vary.

I'm writing this at work, too quickly. Re-reading your post, I think we would agree with each other on this.

Thanks for sharing more of your story.

OK, I guess my whole point is - don't give up (any of y'all out there who may be reading this) if your spouse isn't trying as hard as you'd like him or her too try. Make the decision based on what you feel is right, not on what she or he is or isn't doing.

It takes two to make a good marriage, but sometimes one person has to do more of the work than the other. Sometimes the other is doing all they can, and it won't feel like it's enough, but it's all they can.

enough rambling.