There is an entire profession, called market research, that would completely disagree with you.
In other circles, it's called effective communication. They can disagree with me, if it makes them feel better about themselves, but they'd still be wrong. I think you're confusing "communication" with manipulation. Their profession is devoted to getting people to do things or reach conclusions that they wouldn't reach on their own. They create needs and wants where there weren't any to begin with, the main purpose being to seperate me from my money. Communication is a small part of that, but if thats all it was, we'd all simply get a catalog (text only) in the mail of their client's current offerings. Cac, which would you be more willing to respond to:
"Cac, get your sorry azz off that couch and take out the fcking garbage. NOW!"
OR
"Cac, could you please take out the trash for me? It's overflowing and I need some help." Well, my drill sergeant in the Army got excellent results with the first example. It does impart a certain urgency...
The problem is that women (mars/venus) would more typically say something like "I wish the trash can wasn't always overflowing". To which I would respond by running out to Home Depot and buying a bigger trash can. This would not only annoy, but actually ANGER the woman, even though, it effectively solves the problem that was communicated. If you want the trash removed, and you want ME to be the one to do it, you have to tell me. Just say, "Chuck, please take out the trash". If you want to provide a little bit more motivation, say, "Chuck, please take out the trash...and then I'll give you hot monkey-love".
Now you aren't such an effective boss, are you? And really, who's fault is it? well..hard to compare work situations, because people generally aren't hired "for life". (except maybe priests, and many politicians, or so it seems ). In the situation you describe, the boss is ineffective because he doesn't acknowledge the fact that everyone is replaceable, and doesn't know labor laws.
...Yet, you never play that card (for you, cac: I'm dumping your sorry azz) because this is the exact thing that you fear... she's going to LET YOU do it. No. I couldn't play that card, because I'm not holding that card. And neither could she. (speaking acedemically, of course). Life would be far worse divorced than married. Its simply a case of the "cure" (the only one offered, it seems) being worse than the disease. ...But if your wife doesn't respect you, and all you can do is sit and whine about it, explain to ME why I should see you in any other light than a sorry azz loser? Who I'm staying with because I said I'd be in it for the long haul
No answer for that. Its probably a pretty accurate description. The lesson being, make lots and lots of money, and don't ever have children.
--------------------------------------------------------------- ...What is the threat that you see in what I wrote to my bf: there was no threat. it was just a statement. I don't see how it compares, though. Imagine, if you will: "I spent most of the car ride home today thinking very seriously about this, and I've come to a conclusion. I need to cut sex out of our relationship.
I suppose I take it way too seriously, and because of that, I cannot seem to get around the stress and the angst that seems to consistently appear when we have sex together. I love sex, but I love you more, so I'm picking you over it."
You can't compare sex in the context of a LTR with any other recreational activity. Lots of people say that an SSM is an unacceptable state. But I don't think anyone would say that a "golfless" marriage is. Its perfectly acceptable to live "golfless". Its also ok to get your golfing outside the R...with someone other than your spouse...with people of the opposite gender, or the same. Or both at the same time. with the strangers that were playing behind you. With your BF's boss, or his brother...You can openly ogle and covet another man's equipment, right there on the public course, make comments about how he handles his club. You can even offer to wash his balls, and no one would bat an eyelash. Then you can go home, and share the story with BF (or H or W, as it were), as well as the other 95% of your life, and everyone would be perfectly happy.
anyway, there was no "if/then" in your statement. if there was, it would have gone something like, "if you don't stop being an azz on the golf course, I won't play with you anymore". Or, "I will not golf with an azz". (same difference).
But if you want to compare it to the IWNLIASM, you'd have to say "I will not live in a relationship with an azzy-golfer". Or, "if you don't stop being an azz on the golf course, I'll end the relationship"....which would be rather extreme. Since golf isn't sex, there are other options. I think its every bit as rediculous to have to threaten such an extreme to turn around a SSM. But maybe the fact that sex is "required", and its required to be mutually exclusive, makes it so, and (most) people who's lives wouldn't be improved by such an outcome are just stuck.
We got this convo going because you said that a boundary was the same thing as a threat.
So I give you an example of a boundary, and you tell me it isn't comparable. So, I'll ask again. Where is the threat you saw in what I wrote to my bf.
Quote:
Life would be far worse divorced than married.
How do you know? Have you and Mrs. Cac divorced? You can only imagine and project.
And... divorce is only one possible outcome. Like I said, you must have very little respect and faith in Mrs. Cac to think she would let you get to the point of actually divorcing her.
And you didn't answer my question.
Quote:
Cac, which would you be more willing to respond to:
"Cac, get your sorry azz off that couch and take out the fcking garbage. NOW!"
OR
"Cac, could you please take out the trash for me? It's overflowing and I need some help."
I think both sentences are clearly communicating what it is I want. I'm not most women. So. Which, to you, would you be more willing to respond to, or would it not matter to you?
And like I said before, the issue with my bf is NOT about golf.
Cac, which would you be more willing to respond to:
"Cac, get your sorry azz off that couch and take out the fcking garbage. NOW!"
OR
"Cac, could you please take out the trash for me? It's overflowing and I need some help."
I think both sentences are clearly communicating what it is I want. I'm not most women. So. Which, to you, would you be more willing to respond to, or would it not matter to you?
The answer is "It depends".
She can say the latter at normal volume and have it come across far more contemptuously than the former shouted at the top of her lungs. I've had her scream an expletive-laden request in a "friendly" manner, and ever-so-sweetly ask with a look that indicated she was disgusted with me for even having to ask. It depends.
If she has contempt for you, it's a problem no matter how loud her voice is. Generally, when she does, there is a problem completely unrelated to the garbage, which you can take out or not without affecting the real problem either way.
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
I appreciate your thoughtful response, but I was asking Cac. Though there are grains in your response I can use to continue my point to Cac should he decide to go with your answer.
We make basically the same amount. In terms of the bills, we BOTH are contributing equally. She pays a whole bunch of bills and I pay a buch of bills. She does NOT really do whatever she wants, we both seem committed to paying off the bills of the FAMILY. In terms of the housework, she does more then me, but I do as much as I can (or am allowed). I should cook more. Remember, I have tried the worlds greatest Dad and husband approach before (it does NOT win desire). Soemtimes I think that she intentionally makes SURE that I can not do some of the chores around the house, as that might make her feel OBLIGATED to me in some way.
With the exception of your job, stop doing ALL of your half of the M. This will free up all your non-working time to do what you want, spend time with your kids, etc.
The goal is to get her attention. I would imagine you will get it within a week. If she asks you to do something, respond with... "Hmmm. No, I don't think I will. I just don't feel like it."
Do not engage with her. Do not respond to her if her head spins off her shoulders. Wait until she approaches you in a calm and concerned manner. ANY OTHER approach isn't valid.
Make sure to initiate sex every night. Make sure you get your O first. Finish her off if you feel like it. If not, roll over and go to sleep.
Can you do this and not cave in... even if it takes months for her to approach you in a calm/concerned manner?
The overall boundary is: "I will not participate in a marriage absent of mutual desire and respect."
We got this convo going because you said that a boundary was the same thing as a threat.
So I give you an example of a boundary, and you tell me it isn't comparable. So, I'll ask again. Where is the threat you saw in what I wrote to my bf.
I thought I explained that. well..that boundary, expressed that way is. It is a statement of a planned, future course of action, based on the other's response, and as such, gives the other a choice, and an opportunity to change. your golf boundary was simply executed without any notice, and gives BF no recourse or opportunity to alter his behavior.
executing "IWNLIASM" that way would require just moving out without the other's knowledge, and them finding out about it by way of being served w/ divorce papers. or the proverbial "going out for a gallon of ice cream, and never coming back". no threat there.
Unless..."IWNLIASM" isn't meant to be actually said to the OP...just an idea or a "mantra" that you say to yourself??? like "The Little Engine that Could"? (i THINK i can, i THINK i can....).
Quote:
Life would be far worse divorced than married.
How do you know? Have you and Mrs. Cac divorced? You can only imagine and project. I can do simple math, too, and predict the future w/ alarming accuracy.
And... divorce is only one possible outcome. Like I said, you must have very little respect and faith in Mrs. Cac to think she would let you get to the point of actually divorcing her. well, she wouldn't have much chance, if I just went out for that gallon of ice cream, now, would she?
And you didn't answer my question.
...So. Which, to you, would you be more willing to respond to, or would it not matter to you? I'd respond to either...the trash's ultimate destination might vary, though.
And like I said before, the issue with my bf is NOT about golf.
oh. well, then obviously, I haven't got any idea of what you're talking about. I though he was a great guy in every aspect...except he acts like an azz when you golf...so, no more golf.
Cac4 I think you're confusing "communication" with manipulation. Their profession is devoted to getting people to do things or reach conclusions that they wouldn't reach on their own. They create needs and wants where there weren't any to begin with, the main purpose being to seperate me from my money. Sounds like the home shopping channels, QVC, HSN, Infomercials.
well..that boundary, expressed that way is. It is a statement of a planned, future course of action, based on the other's response, and as such, gives the other a choice, and an opportunity to change. your golf boundary was simply executed without any notice, and gives BF no recourse or opportunity to alter his behavior.
Not really. My bf can change his behavior at any point, and it is completely up to him. If he changes... great, we might play golf together again. If he doesn't, the problem is still solved. It's that my actions aren't based on anything he may or may not do.
And just because you say "IWNLIASM,' does not mean you HAVE to walk out the door immediately.
Quote:
Quote:
And... divorce is only one possible outcome. Like I said, you must have very little respect and faith in Mrs. Cac to think she would let you get to the point of actually divorcing her.
well, she wouldn't have much chance, if I just went out for that gallon of ice cream, now, would she?
So you think that if you say "IWNLIASM," that walking out the door or divorcing her is you only option of action? That's pretty black and white. I can see why this is such a difficult thing for you to grasp. Very binary.
Quote:
oh. well, then obviously, I haven't got any idea of what you're talking about. I though he was a great guy in every aspect...except he acts like an azz when you golf...so, no more golf.
That sounds to me like someone who fundamentally believes that other people don't want to give him what he wants, that they don't care about what he wants or they think he doesn't deserve to get what he wants, and that they can only be motivated to give him what he wants through bribes or threats. If that's the case, of course, a threat has to be credible or it won't work, and if following through on the threat is worse than doing without what he wants and he can't bluff properly, then the other person doesn't have a reason in the world to give him what he wants and he's stuck doing without.
In a marriage that's not about to blow up, this isn't the case. The people want to meet each other's needs, but can't at the moment for some reason. Occasionally a good dose of fear helps them get over what was in their way and they see things more clearly and meet the other's needs better. It may look like the "giving in to a threat" above, but it's not the same thing... the person on the receiving end is doing what she wished she could do all along, and is grateful for being "pushed" into it, rather than feeling like one who has "given in". See Cadesmom34's threads for a more detailed illustration.
Sometimes you can become more attractive in some ways, by gaining confidence, achieving goals, eliminating unattractive habits, and so forth, and help spark the desire in her that she wishes she felt and make it a lot easier for her to meet your need that she wanted, but felt unable to, meet all along.
It all depends on what's holding the other person back from meeting your needs. Whatever it is, your spouse may need your help to get past it. If she can't get past it, she feels remorse, and she feels disappointment and fear, and if you just let it go without even mentioning it, she feels relief that you can do without it after all and she hasn't failed you, and isn't about to bring it up herself and remind you what you're missing.
a fine and enviable madness, this delusion that all questions have answers, and nothing is beyond the reach of a strong left arm.
). In the situation you describe, the boss is ineffective because he doesn't acknowledge the fact that everyone is replaceable, and doesn't know labor laws. 