I like the neutral day, and I see your point on meeting that goal. I do have them listed, I actually created a check list in word to mark off, and I have major goals 1) A loving fulfilling relationship! Not the exact language. Then minor, weekly, and prior to any meeting I have situation goals. So far I'm hitting about 80%. No arguements for two days for instance.
Your advice is amazing, helps keep a chin up. I do have a major concern before tommorow's outing.
She can not stop about the R/M and the issues. I try and be supportive and have read most of DR. But I'm still lost on what to do when it comes up. I just node my head, I don't dismiss, I don't say sorry anymore, just listen. But I don't think it is helping to listen, I think she is trying to justify her actions. She is very diplomatic about it, "It's me, not you." But I think by being an outlet I'm letting her justify, what do I do, 1) continue on this path of just listening, 2) Get up, walk away and go do something else! I don't want to turn her off on letting her know I'm an outlet, but at the same time I'm just eating crow during these convo's.
Sorry I haven't hit the castle picnic post. I'm trying to read your posts from start to front.
mopo is right one the money (as usual) -- I won't repeat anything because I think he said it all! Oh, I guess I would say that the ring flaunting is her trying to get a read on you. Just keep ignoring it, and like mopo said -- make a timeline goal of her putting it back on (this way you can put it out of your mind better).
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She can not stop about the R/M and the issues. I try and be supportive and have read most of DR. But I'm still lost on what to do when it comes up. I just node my head, I don't dismiss, I don't say sorry anymore, just listen. But I don't think it is helping to listen, I think she is trying to justify her actions.
I'm sure she is, and you are doing what SHE NEEDS YOU TO DO -- listen and validate. You need to be there for her, and you should feel good that she is looking to you to spill her feelings and hope for support. She may be continuing discussing it because she is trying to figure out where you stand. DON'T WALK AWAY -- this will show her that you aren't interested in listening to her anymore, and OUR W's NEED US TO BE THERE AND LISTEN TO THEM AT TIMES LIKE THESE. Yes it hurts, sucks, etc, but you need to bite your tongue and ride out the storms. When she shuts down completely and withdraws from you, that you should REALLY be worrying about where things are headed. I'm not saying that what she is talking about is good -- I'm saying that her talking to YOU about it is good.
Do read about the castle/picnic analogy -- it really does your on/off days perfectly!
And also, in regard to the parade/fireworks, W could've simply said, "Why don't you or I just keep S for both events." Now does her suggestion sound more positive?
I like the neutral day, and I see your point on meeting that goal.
I still see it as positive. See what GD said about it in his last paragraph - I agree.
Originally Posted By: Atlas
I do have them listed, I actually created a check list in word to mark off, and I have major goals 1) A loving fulfilling relationship! Not the exact language. Then minor, weekly, and prior to any meeting I have situation goals. So far I'm hitting about 80%. No arguements for two days for instance.
This is excellent my friend! Keep this up! In the Staying Solutions Focus Workshop (not sure that is the exact name) forum, there is a subforum on goals. I started looking at it last night. Some good suggestions in there for specific goals and how to go about setting, tracking and meeting goals. Check it out when you can. So much GREAT information on this site. I love it!
Originally Posted By: Atlas
I do have a major concern before tommorow's outing.
She can not stop about the R/M and the issues. I try and be supportive and have read most of DR. But I'm still lost on what to do when it comes up. I just node my head, I don't dismiss, I don't say sorry anymore, just listen. But I don't think it is helping to listen, I think she is trying to justify her actions. She is very diplomatic about it, "It's me, not you." But I think by being an outlet I'm letting her justify, what do I do, 1) continue on this path of just listening, 2) Get up, walk away and go do something else! I don't want to turn her off on letting her know I'm an outlet, but at the same time I'm just eating crow during these convo's.
You are doing good on this, and much better than before, right? The move from defending to listening is HUGE. Now, let me tell you what I think the next step is, and this may be what's giving you the nagging feeling that something's missing and these talks aren't "helping." And GD hit it too - the next part is validate (and empathize)! (And GD also wisely points out that you have a chance to meet HER needs. This is golden. This is your chance to be an unconditional friend - giving her what she needs with no regard for your own needs and without trying to get something out of this exchange for yourself. Seize the opportunity!)
Ok, here is the dialogue sequence (this comes from IMAGO therapy, by the way, and if you're curious check out Hendricks or Hendrix's book Getting the Love you Want):
First, Listen and Mirror. Let her talk, and when she stops (or if it's a lot you can ask her to stop so you don't get too much to remember - just say "can you give me a minute to make sure I am getting all of this?"), mirror back to her exactly what she says. Be careful about changing the words too much, and paraphrasing. Be true to her message. So, for example:
W - you know Atlas, I just feel like we fight all the time. We argue constantly, and we always have, and it has really just worn me out. I don't know how we can be happy if we don't get along.
Atlas - So you feel like we fight all the time, and have always fought all the time, and you're tired of it. And you're worried that we can't be happy if we fight all the time. Did I get that right?
W - Yeah, that's right, and I don't know what to do about it.
Second, Mirror. Ok, perfect mirroring, and now on to the critical step, which is to validate. This is key, and where you really have a chance to meet her needs. (By the way, her needs are most likely to be heard (listen, mirror) and understood (validate, empathize). And we all have these needs. Your needs in this talk, if they mattered, are likely to be too defend yourself, or to counter and tell her that the two of you had good times too, but you have to table your needs for now, because you're there for her. She started the talk afterall.)
To validate means to understand how she got to this point logically. To see it from her perspective, and see how logically she thinks this. Importantly, it does not mean agreeing, but if you do agree, you can say so. You can also say sorry, or that you regret it, if you feel that way, but you don't have to, IMO. So, you might say something like this:
Atlas - W, I see how you feel that way, like we argued all the time. We have argued/fought a lot, and that's something I regret. It was terrible for our R.
Just leave it at that. It's that simple. Notice you didn't agree that you literally fought all the time, but you validated how she feels because you do understand logically how she feel that way because you did argue at times. (Of course, this is a hypo - I have no idea if arguing was one of your issues.) One more thing on validating, if you do not understand how she feels that way (and please be sure you can't see it from her perspective before you do this, because it is better to see it from her perspective as soon as possible), you can ask her to help you understand. It would look something like this:
Atlas - W, I hear that you feel like we fought/fight all the time (note - mirroring again), but help me to understand that because I just don't remember that many arguments or fights.
And then shut up, listen and get ready to mirror again and hopefully validate. I''m sure you can see why it is MUCH better to get what she is saying without asking, because now she has to lay out for you the 15 fights you had in the last twelve months and that will conjure up negative feeling, emotions, etc.
Third, after validating, the next step is empathize. You can skip this if you want (as long as you validated), but it can be very powerful too. To empathize is to understand where she is coming from emotionally, as opposed to logically. Logic tells you that she feels like you fought all the time because you know you did have fights so you see how she gets there even if you don't agree it was all the time. Empathy is seeing how this makes her feel emotionally - angry, frustrated, sad, hurt, unloved, exhausted, whatever. The best way is to mirror back any emotions she already used. So in the example above, she really didn't give you much but she said she felt "worn out" and didn't know what to do. So, you could say:
Atlas (after validating that he sees how she could feel like they fought all the time) - And I understand that you feel worn out by all the fighting. Is that right?
W - Yes, I am exhausted.
Atlas - I understand that. [Now, you have empathized, and you can venture a guess as to other emotions, but you don't have to. I like to do it, but always ask her if that is what she is feeling. She can tell you yes or no, and it might lead her to telling you what (else) she is feeling. So,] And I can also imagine that you might be feeling [or you might say "and I think that might make me feel"] frustrated and sad. Does it make you feel that way?
W - Not so much frustrated, because I think it's just the way we are, but it does make me sad.
Atlas - yeah, I bet.
Do you see how powerful this can be? You can really connect and really be there for her and really meet her needs. That is a true friend, and she is giving you the chance to do it. Note that in her answer she threw in a shot or some alien spew about it's just how we are (eg, hopeless). And saying she wasn't frustrated kind of contradicted what she said earlier about not knowing what to do. But go with it. This is purely for her. (If it were me, I'd have to fight the urge to counter her "it's just the way we are poin with "but it's not hopeless!" Better to bite your tongue. I'm learning.)
One last thing. After this, it is appropriate to end with "is there anything more?" If she says no, great. You did it! If she elaborates on the same point, go with it - listen, validate and empathize if you can. If she goes to a different R topic - follow the same steps again. This is just a R skill - four little steps you can apply over and over in the same conversations and/or throughout your R. When I get into any kind of serious talk with my W now (R or not, but mainly R), in my head I am taking it step by step:
1. listen 2. mirror 3. validate 4. empathize
Oh yeah, sorry, one more point. Don't give her advice or try to solve any problems. I did this for years any time the wife would talk to me. (And I played devil's advocate explaining the other side so she would feel better. Ha!) If she wants your advice, or solutions, or to see the other side, she'll ask. Otherwise, assume she wants to be heard and understood.
I hope it helps, and let me know if you have questions or if that isn't clear,
Nomopo
PS - this skill isn't easy or natural, but it gets to be easier and somewhat automatic. It takes some practice, so don't sweat getting it right the first time (hopefully today - look at that, now I am hoping the WAS initiates an R talk! ). More than likely, you will have multiple opportunities to perfect this skill.
M 39 W 39 M'd 10 yrs; T 14 yrs S7 D4 Bomb 5-8-05 W not working on M 1-22-07; EA 2-22 DB 4-10 S 6-11 No more C Link
That is great! The thing that is hard for her is that she is a therapist. The W works mainly with anger management, drug abuse, domestic violence, so she teaches many of these skills and will see when I am using them, but it will show my effort and allow her to express her feelings and emotions.
I had to read your post 3 times to fully comprehend how I go about doing this. W and I are very much polor opposites and I have never attempted to work on these things. She has already taken notice that I'm working on things, and thinks I'm doing well in terms of handlig everything. I just keep telling her I'm thinking things through and working on becoming a better person.
Well I'm sure I will have plenty of opportunity to start practicing this today. She is coming buy, she said she may come by since she needs the internet in my office, so that will be nice. Plus tonight at the fireworks.
One thing that has become very interesting is she is upset about me not being man enough. My parents have really helped us through this last year of graduate school, and I owe them some money. She has always been very independent and she said it is hard for her to understand my family, we are all very close. I have two great brothers who have helped and I help with anything.
So the irony in this is that she is upset, and thinks there is co-dependence with the family. I see her point and agree. Well, the OM (if I can call him that) is a trust funder, has no job, drives a "very nice car" in her words and lives in a large house in a resort town. It is puzzling to me how she can see clearly with me, but with him she is in the clouds. I guess thats what happens when someone else fulfills your W EN.
The picnic and castle is perfect! She is coming out but she runs back. Just got to keep having a good time at the picnic!!!
Two things. First, if she asks about the changes you are making, just say you have taken a hard look at yourself and you are really woring on becoming the person you want to be, for you. Second, I don't know that she'll recognize the technique, but if she does I don't think it is bad. Just keep it short and sweet with her. Listen, mirror (though you can lose this if it feels to forced), and validate. I'd only empathize with any feelings she offers up. Pushing for her emotions can be great, but not necessary. Go with your gut on empathy, but mirror any emotions she offers.
Good luck!
Last edited by Nomopo; 07/04/0706:14 PM.
M 39 W 39 M'd 10 yrs; T 14 yrs S7 D4 Bomb 5-8-05 W not working on M 1-22-07; EA 2-22 DB 4-10 S 6-11 No more C Link
Listen, Mirror, Validate and Empathize, that is the way.
Journaling:
Had a great 4th, hope everyone did as well. The parade was great, everyone had a good time and I caught us laughing with each other a few times. She was tired after and wanted to go home, and relax but let me take the S back to the fireworks.
I took him and we had a great time, he really enjoyed it. She went back to our house to check her email. After I took him back to her place and was going to do the drop and go, but she asked if I would come in.
We had a good talk. I tried to avoid R talk but then I started using the NOMO techniques and good things came of it. She expressed that she thought leaving would fix everything and now she just feels worse. W also told me that she is upset because now outside of her brother, her whole family thinks she is making a mistake. I just kept using the four steps and she did a lot of confiding. W wanted to explore a lot of how we got to this point, and I stayed calm and talked about how I was improving myself. I think she was impressed. Only downer in the conversation "I know this is nasty subject, but lawyer friend told me would could just file online, what do you think?" How do you answer that? Not only was it upsetting, I kept my cool, but I didn't have a lot to say.
Shortly after that, long enough to not seem like I was running, I closed the night out. No hug, but a very sincere thank you for listening, and she stated that no one else will anymore, she feels like I'm the only one who cares. Great!!! Told her that I'm only a phone call away and left.
Oh, on another note, after just purchasing the house, which we bought based on both of our incomes, I'm pretty close to upside down. So I'm on the roommate hunt, or partner hunt. But when I told W about someone coming to check it out, she got pretty withdrawn.
I think I have her really stepping back and taking a hard look at things. Only time will tell.
Sounds like you did great! Way to go. No matter what she decides (there are no guarantees, and you can't control her), this should position you for the best possible R.
On the filing online, all you can really do is stay calm and stall. Say you need to think about it. Buy time.
Good for you! Nomo
M 39 W 39 M'd 10 yrs; T 14 yrs S7 D4 Bomb 5-8-05 W not working on M 1-22-07; EA 2-22 DB 4-10 S 6-11 No more C Link
Bravo! She ironically sees you as her confidante through all of this, which is EXACTLY where you want to be with the current sitch the way it is. She seemed to show that she really isn't enjoying her "stay in the castle" very much, and the only negative comment was about the online D talk (which was odd to throw into all of the other stuff -- I would've been at a loss for words too, but it sounds like you handled it darn well!).
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I think I have her really stepping back and taking a hard look at things. Only time will tell.
Looks like your on the right tracks. I'm in a similar situation and the temptation to discuss, discuss, discuss with anyone is overwhelming, but stick with the advice given here. I'm certainly going to look at adapting some of it to my situation.
). More than likely, you will have multiple opportunities to perfect this skill.