Love, what is it, is it real, does it matter?

[LoginName]

OK, more cynasism and darkness, as I play devil's advocate. (without spell check, I might add. Please forgive the bad spelling)

Let's assume that:
1. love is a choice.
2. love is part of the plan for us, to help us 'lose ourselves' and to fulfill our purpose in life.
Question.
What if you go through life never finding one person to be married to, live with, lose yourself with? Are you a failure?
What if, despite your best efforts, the M/R fails? Are you a failure?
Does it matter who you 'lose yourself' with? Does it have to be the same person for the rest of your life? If so, why?
If my W decides she doesn't want to be with me and wants to divorce, I'll be OK. I'll survive, and I'll be able to be happy. I'll be the kind of person I should be and 'be there for me'. Will I have failed to fullfill my purpose in life?

If the answer to those questions is that we are not failures, and if love is a choice, then why not choose to move on to someone else, try again? Why is love 'special', at least over time?

Is self love (not conceit) the first love you should have?

I think there is something special in a love between two people over a life time. I think that together, a couple can acheive heights of closeness and understanding that enrich life and the world. There is something to love. I think part of DB is Loving and learning to Love each other, without so many questions. Just do it. But the questions interest me anyway.

[LoginName]

Thanks Sara, I'll look into Retrouvaille. It sounds really helpful. The MC we've had has been good, but not enough.

[LoginName]

thanks for sharing, Sara.
As always, I see many similarities to my sitch. I'm envious of where you are now, and hope my W and I can get there too.

[tyler]

Saffie,
I do and would appreciate what I've got, or had, or hope to have again.

Physical beauty is important, no doubt, maybe expecially to men. But even when my W was quit a bit heavier, I told her she was beautiful and that I loved her (not enough apparently, but I did tell her, and meant it). See Sara's comment about how she told the dog ILY more than her husband. That's what was important to me, I wanted my W to say ILY and want me. I didn't care if she got fat (2 ceasarians, one overseas the wrong way).

Saffie,
login covered it pretty well. When my W was sick, had thyroid issues and gained a considerable amount of wieght, I still thought of her as my beauty, the love of my life. Now? After a period of time hearing that I'm not what she wants, she isn't attracted to me in anyway and that type of thing? Even though that isn't said any longer, it's still painful. I hear my wife tell her friends in person or on the phone everyday, I love you or love you too.

You want to know the last time I heard those words? Maybe it is just where I am right now. It seems she is turning slowly back towards us and I find myself struggling with this question, do I want her? Seems silly doesn't it? To work this hard, and prepare myself to work this hard for a long time, only to begin to reap the rewards and find myself in this struggle.

Which is why I appreciate everyones contribution to this thread. I need to get my head clear on this so I can bolster my resolve. If that makes sense?

Not to sound too egotistical but I'm in better shape then I was at 20. Prior to my injury in January, I could bench 225 more times now, ran a faster 40 and 400, as well as being heavier.

Then again, part of how I make my living is training people.

[Sara]

I think it is too judgemental to call a person a failure in life if they don't find love according to a standard. In fact, judging success and failure is dangerous territory. A few years ago, when my son was arrested for drug dealing and we got a call from jail at 3 in the morning, my husband held me and said, "does this mean that we are a failure as parents?" And I thought of all the things we did with our son to give him a good life, the bright and sunny times, and I said, "yes, I think we have to admit that we are failures." Well, 5 years have passed since that time, and my son now works fulltime and keeps out of trouble. Now we are judged as a huge success, and others ask me how I did it. Life is too complex to measure with a yardstick.

I do think that it is destructive that we have come to believe that love is the result of being hit with Cupid's arrow. And unless we are regularly struck with the arrow, we do not feel love. I am embarassed to admit, I had to be told that love is a decision. And it is only because I am pretty honest with myself that I can see that I decided a long time ago to not love my husband, and how destructive that decision was. I got what I deserved. My boyfriend never came back and said he wanted to build his life with me, but my husband's old girlfriend was right there for him. Poetic justice. Luckily, my husband's goal was not so much to reunite with the old girlfriend as it was to live a life with a loving partner. If I was truly willing to do that, then he wanted to do it with me.

[saffie]

Loginname,

You have covered a lot of ground there!!!

I believe that our S's only look back at other previous R's they have had when for some reason they feel that the one they have is not satisfying their needs for whatever reason. I have someone who I was really close to from the age of 8. My parents really liked him and beleived that one day we would get married. Although we went to different university's we would meet up regularly and would even talk about marriage at some time in the future. When this guy received the invite to the wedding to my H he went to visit my mum and couldn't believe that I was marrying someone else. In bad times I have thought about this guy loads and wondered what life would have been like with him. However, deep down i KNOW that we were not suited. Both of us could be hot headed and ours would have been a stormy relationship. His mother still meets up with mine sometimes and she always talks down his wife and hankers after what would have been if we got together. I KNOW though that I married the right man for me and even though he went off and had an affair he is still the right man for me.

I guess what I am trying to say is that the first love is something that is hard to compete with when times are bad, as they reside in a fantasy world. Put them in the real world and ther rarely measure up to what you can offer. Keep the faith - your reality is better than his can ever be.

Saffie

[tyler]

Hey! I wasn't done with that Post! so here's more. So Saffie, yes, men are probably more visual than women (not that women aren't visual too), but it's not the most important thing.

Tyler, I think I know what you mean. It's part of the detaching. You are probably not "judging" or even really critisising her body, but it's a way of detaching. And maybe it's partly because they have detached from us. If my W looked at me and said ILY, I'd thing she was the most beautiful, sexy, woman in the world. Knowing she can't or won't say that and that she doesn't feel that for me, she definately has become less attractive to me.

What do you think? Plausable?

Absolutely. I'm not judging her at all. As my SIL said to me recently, "you should at least get points for the big period". Honestly, I didn't really notice. She was the love of my life, we were partners in this, the weight gain, whether temporary due to hormonal issues or permanent due to whatever, just didn't matter. Even after losing the weight, the issues associated with losing so much, ie; loose skin, sagging, etc., just didn't matter..., until the bomb. Not even then. I think it began several months ago after hearing for almost a year, basically how unlovable I am to her. Something has started to shutoff.

My IC related it to attempting to sit at a table with people that keep getting up and walking to another table. After while you find a different table and the resolve to sit at your table alone and be content with that. (context of alone due to me telling IC I don't want to be with someone else, it isn't about that.) He quoted the Apostle Paul, something about in all circumstances I am content. Telling me that contentment is my choice, much like love.

[toughlover]

OK, I'm sorry in advance for what follows, but you asked for it, and I'm living up to my name now

What if you go through life never finding one person to be married to, live with,

You already have. End of story.

lose yourself with?

Dude, you are really missing the point. You don't lose yourself in another person. The goal is to find yourself by losing yourself in God. By living a Godly, obedient life in service and true love to others. And it has to start with your inner circle, your wife and kids. I'm not talking about romance here because in many ways true love is anything but romantic.

Are you a failure?

You are only a failure if you abdicate responsibility. You already have a commitment to your wife and kids. You have to provide certain things whether they respond in kind or not. That's what it means to be a man. You will suffer, but you should know that suffering is part of it and is supposed to be. God suffers with us, too; He suffers for us and because of us.

What if, despite your best efforts, the M/R fails?

Who cares? We all fail at some point because we're human. The key is to make sure it doesn't fail because of YOU. That's YOUR choice. If she walks away from you when you're giving her your best (truly, from the heart and from your strength, not just going through the motions or keeping up appearances), then you will have to accept her choice.

Are you a failure?

Asked and answered.

Does it matter who you 'lose yourself' with?

Absolutely. If you lose yourself in romantic love you're essentially throwing your life and your character away. That's how affairs begin in the first place. You have to have something better.

Does it have to be the same person for the rest of your life? If so, why?

Because you made a commitment to do and give your best "for richer or poorer, in sickness in health, til death do you part."
Whether she does or not. In other words, no matter what.

If my W decides she doesn't want to be with me and wants to divorce, I'll be OK. I'll survive, and I'll be able to be happy. I'll be the kind of person I should be and 'be there for me'. Will I have failed to fullfill my purpose in life?

Who knows? Depends on whether you truly give it everything at this point or if you only give if she gives back or if she gives first. That was a choice you could in good conscience make before you committed your life to that person. Now, you're committed to giving your best regardless because you are a husband and father and that's at the top of the list of how a man can be a real man. You may not get what you want at this point but your job is to be there for your kids and to be constant. You don't have to chase your wife or let her walk all over you if she's treating you badly. But you have a job to do nonetheless.

If the answer to those questions is that we are not failures, and if love is a choice, then why not choose to move on to someone else, try again?

You can do that if you so choose...but you have no idea how that's going to affect your kids, your wife, and you down the road. In my opinion, you're chasing what everyone who has affairs chases...an ideal, a feeling. You don't have that luxury anymore, bro. You're married. Either your word means something, or it doesn't. Anyone can be holy when things are going their way; anyone can be strong when they're getting what they want. It's only when the heat is on that we find out what we're really made of, who we really are. This is where the rubber hits the road. We can give our children the gift of our commitment to them (and your commitment to your wife is also a commitment to your children).

Why is love 'special', at least over time?

Dude, it's time to cowboy up. It's special over time because time reveals the quality of your word, your commitment. Love is the acceptance of responsibility for a relationship. It's a decision, a choice. You've made your choice and so has she. You can either live up to it, or not...but you need to do it because of who YOU are and who God is. Nothing bad can come from you for staying strong for your children or for standing for your marriage. Plenty bad can come from you giving up...and make no mistake, choosing to abandon the marriage is still giving up, to some degree, on our kids. Your wife may divorce you anyway, and you may not have any choice legally, and you may have to accept that. But you don't have to choose it.

Is self love (not conceit) the first love you should have?

I don't know what that means. The first love you should have is for God. If you do that, everything falls into place. It may not fall in the direction you want (because every human being has free will) all the time, but it's all about who you decide to be and how you respond to the choices of those around you.

When two people marry, they become one flesh. You love yourself by loving your wife and loving your kids. And you can't love them by walking away from the commitment.

I think there is something special in a love between two people over a life time. I think that together, a couple can acheive heights of closeness and understanding that enrich life and the world.

But that is the by-product of their character and their commitment. Neither you nor your wife have any idea about what you can achieve together until you both commit to it...but just b ecause she isn't following through, you don't have the right to take your ball and go home, or go play somewhere else.

I'm sure glad I didn't...but I often wanted to. Neither my wife or I expected things to be this good. Feminists be damned...you're the man, be a leader. Love your wife and kids and give them your best, give your wife as much as she's willing to accept, and give to her more by respecting her space if that's what she wants. And see what happens.

There is something to love. I think part of DB is Loving and learning to Love each other, without so many questions. Just do it. But the questions interest me anyway.

DB is about choosing your marriage and your commitment, and making the choices that give you your best shot at making it the best it can be.

Hey, in the end, it's always your choice. If we simply based our most important choices on how we feel at any given time, or what our outlook for the future is at any given time, instead of doing what's right, then the world would be even worse off than it is.

In fact, most of the world's messes involve people breaking the rules. We talk alot about how our kids are the future...then have affairs, divorces, remarriages, et al while comforting ourselves with nonsense like "kids are resilient" and putting computers in their classrooms.

But what they need most, and what is best for them, is an intact family.

[saffie]

Tyler,

Perhaps when we have spent sooooo long wanting to get something, when one starts to reap the rewards we then wonder 'do we really want it?'.

When my H had his affair I was desperate at the beginning to keep him and make sure that my marriage worked. Then, when we seemed to be turning a corner and he was making all the right moves and all the right noises, I suddenly felt as though perhaps I didn't want it after all. The balance of power had changed - no longer was he in charge and was I begging for every last morsel. Now he was contrite and I seemed to be the one with all the power and it's not a nice thing to admit but I think a portion of me wanted to get my own back. I started to tell him that I wasn't sure I wanted to stay in the marriage, (and I did truly feel this, I wasn't trying to just be spiteful). I wondered if I wanted to get out there whilst I was still young enough and find someone else to spend my life with who would love me unconditionally and without placing any doubts in my mind. But does that person actually exist? Is it not better to stay with someone who knows us 'warts and all?'

Do you want her? I don't know - only you know that. But my guess would be that you do want her - you just want her to want you more than you think she does at the moment, and she needs to prove it. Perhaps she can't do that vocally but maybe she can by the way she acts. Even washing ones partners clothes, tidying up after them etc can be a way of showing that you love them. My mum isn't very good at vocalising her love but she shows it in what she does for me and my sister even though we no longer live at home.

If your wife is only just starting to show she cares once more then give her a bit more time. I don't know how old your children are, (mine are 15,14,12 and 9) and the last few years have used up all my energy. By the end of a day I am all cuddled out and have little left for my husband. As far as I was concerned he was an adult and could look after himself. I was WRONG and I cry thinking about how WRONG i was. He needed me as much as the children did but instead I used any spare time I had looking after myself and my own interests. I was also a stay at home mum. Until I had children I had been the main breadwinner, but once the family arrived that changed and without realising it so much of my self worth dissapeared ,along with my laughter and joy of life. I also felt who would want me? And so it was memories of boyfriends etc that knew me before that kept me feeling alive.

Don't turn away from her just when she is turning back to you. There is so much in the future to look forward to. Try and remember what you enjoyed doing before the children came along. You are people, NOT just parents, and you will be a couple again once the children leave home.Start doing things together just the two of you like going to the theatre or the cinema, playing sports like tennis or badminton.....

I applaud you for remaining fit and I am sure you wife thinks thats great too. It can be quite a shock to see people we remember from when we were young, and see how badly they have aged .

Keep the faith - it is possible to fall in love again and rekindle that passion

Saffie

[tyler]

Thanks login for starting this thread. Best Eva!

TL, that is some real good, if not great info. Much to think about and process.

I'm at an impasse, re; rings and such. Not to derail this thread but I'll roll the dice here.

What do physical symbols say about Love?

(since we all pretty much agree at this point that love is a verb).