Particularly this part; "In our case it came back because I made the decision, independent of her, to be the best husband and father I could be regardless of her choice; and I refused to quit on the marriage, but I accepted that she could choose to quit."
I guess that is the balancing act of which I'm speaking. How to engage while disengaging. Love the sinner, hate the sin type thing. To radically accept and unconditionally love while being hurt because there might not be anything in return. Doing this by faith, as a sacrifice unto God, trusting that He will honor it and I'll reap the rewards.
Make any sense at all?
Physically, I could talk myself right out of any attraction, mentally and emotionally as well. Love her as the mother of my children, absolutely. As my lover? With a little work, that can be gone due to her actions and words.
So I choose to love her while not needing or wanting her.
Retrouvaille, meaning rediscovery in French, is an organization with support from the Catholic church that holds weekend retreats around the world to help people heal their broken marriages. They have a website, http://www.retrouvaille.org. The program works by example. Couples who have experienced misery in their marriages present their stories. They sit in front of you, with occasional tears in their eyes, holding hands and giving each other support, telling you openly and honestly about their lives, what went wrong, and how they fixed it. Then they teach you a communication technique called Dialoguing and you practice doing dialogues with your spouse, in private. They give you questions to dialogue about. These questions help you and your spouse understand each other at a deeper level than you ever could by simply talking.
The initial program takes a weekend. You can do it in your home city or go somewhere else and make it a mini-vacation. There are follow-up sessions locally. These help you to continue the openness and understanding with each other. They teach concepts like, love is a decision. Or, marriage is like a building supported by four posts: love, commitment, trust, and forgiveness. If you break one of the posts, like trust, and forgiveness is weak, then the building comes crashing down. To rebuild the marriage, you must rebuild the four posts. The more I thought about it, the more I understood. To rebuild my marriage I had to forgive, and trust. I couldn't rebuild the marriage first and have those fill in later.
While it is sponsored by the Church, it is open to all. My husband and I are not Catholics, and we benefited tremendously from the experience. We did not find the presentations by the priest to be too slanted to Catholic doctrine. He was there to be of service to the Catholics in the room who wanted his services. We were told not to confess new things to each other -- the priest was there to take confessions. I found that interesting. They do not focus on the past, they focus on building a new future together.
My H and I were married in 1979, almost 28 years ago. We have 3 children. Usual problems and arguments, but as I saw my other friends get divorced and heard their stories, I chose against that for myself. I wasn't particularly happy, but they were even more unhappy.
I was not loving toward him. I decided years ago that I should have married a different boyfriend. But we co-existed and had a decent life together. Over the years we grew further apart, we argued over how to deal with our son who chose to be a juvenile delinquent and was verbally abusive to me. We went to counseling at that point, but made no headway in solving the problem.
About a year ago my husband began an internet relationship with his old girlfriend. That grew into an EA and then in November they took a romantic weekend together. Super sleuth that I am, I figured it out! I confronted him with cell phone records of his calls to her (should have been looking at those all along), and he said he would stop. Two weeks later, I checked the cell phone bill again, and the calls were still going on.
I gave my son her number. If she wanted my job as his wife, she could have my son too! So he called her and told her he knew she was having an affair with his father, and if she didn't stop he would find her and make her stop! Apparently, H had neglected to mention that we were a dysfunctional family. So she decided my job didn't really look too good, and she called H and broke up with him.
At that point I decided that I really did want this marriage. We tried to put things back together ourselves, but it ran hot and cold. Some days were good, some were vicious. A friend at work had just been to Retrouvaille and sent a glowing letter to us all recommending the program. So, knowing next to nothing about it, I suggested that we go to Retrouvaille together. There being no other solution, he agreed to it.
We went to the weekend in January, did the post sessions in Feb and March and we were continuing to get better. Now the kids have moved out of the house - we are empty nesters, at least for the summer, and life is really good. I have learned to love my husband and he is learning to love me. We are different people than we were 6 months ago. The sex is great, we laugh at each other's jokes, it's a lot like when we were first married. I won't say all the tension is gone, but we know how to approach our problems when one comes up. We pull out our notebooks, and we dialogue on the subject.
You asked why my husband wasn't happy to hear me tell the dog I loved him. That's simple. It had been years since I told my husband I loved him. He felt that his daily grind of going to the office to bring home a paycheck was more valuable than the dog's skill at retrieving balls and frisbees. But there I was critical of my husband, and loving the dog! One day he told me that he wanted to be loved more than the pets.
I can relate to that. My H thought that I loved my horse more than him - which at the time I probably did. The horse offered me unconditional love, (aslong as her tea appeared on time), the H just gave me a headache!!
It wasn't until he got involved with someone else that I realised just how much he really meant to me and at that point offered to have horse made into burgers. Luckily he didin't take me up on that one as it would have been a close call but it did seem to help turn some sort of corner.
Saffie
Saffie me 46 H 46 M in 1986 D20,D18,S16,D13 H's A 01/05 to 07/06 H recommitted to M 07/06 renewed vows 09/06 Going from strength to strength
I note your comment about your wife being beautiful by other peoples accounts, yet seeing her naked makes you question that, as she has had four children. I myself have had four children and I expect that I look better dressed than naked. But I sure as hell didn't get pregnant by myself, and can you say hand on heart that you are in the same physical shape that you were in when you met your wife. If you can then I would say that you are in the minority of men. However much my body may have changed after having had children and just with having got older, it is still in a damn better shape than my H's. And for all those men out there who say that women don't go for looks but character then thats just a load of bull - we want both. Who wants to go to bed with a slob with a fat beer belly and who snores? I sure don't.
And even after four children I am still below the average dress size and am fit and healthy. You men should appreciate what you got - I'm sure there is a lot worse out there, including some real bunny boilers.
Saffie
Saffie me 46 H 46 M in 1986 D20,D18,S16,D13 H's A 01/05 to 07/06 H recommitted to M 07/06 renewed vows 09/06 Going from strength to strength
Saffie, I do and would appreciate what I've got, or had, or hope to have again.
Physical beauty is important, no doubt, maybe expecially to men. But even when my W was quit a bit heavier, I told her she was beautiful and that I loved her (not enough apparently, but I did tell her, and meant it). See Sara's comment about how she told the dog ILY more than her husband. That's what was important to me, I wanted my W to say ILY and want me. I didn't care if she got fat (2 ceasarians, one overseas the wrong way).
M45, W45,S15, D10, Bomb 10/3/06, Moved back in 11/6/06, finally ILY 9/07 last thread
Saffie, I do and would appreciate what I've got, or had, or hope to have again.
Physical beauty is important, no doubt, maybe expecially to men. But even when my W was quit a bit heavier, I told her she was beautiful and that I loved her (not enough apparently, but I did tell her, and meant it). See Sara's comment about how she told the dog ILY more than her husband. That's what was important to me, I wanted my W to say ILY and want me. I didn't care if she got fat (2 ceasarians, one overseas the wrong way).
M45, W45,S15, D10, Bomb 10/3/06, Moved back in 11/6/06, finally ILY 9/07 last thread
Hey! I wasn't done with that Post! so here's more. So Saffie, yes, men are probably more visual than women (not that women aren't visual too), but it's not the most important thing.
Tyler, I think I know what you mean. It's part of the detaching. You are probably not "judging" or even really critisising her body, but it's a way of detaching. And maybe it's partly because they have detached from us. If my W looked at me and said ILY, I'd thing she was the most beautiful, sexy, woman in the world. Knowing she can't or won't say that and that she doesn't feel that for me, she definately has become less attractive to me.
What do you think? Plausable?
M45, W45,S15, D10, Bomb 10/3/06, Moved back in 11/6/06, finally ILY 9/07 last thread
Interesting Saffie, I felt in my M that my W loved her hobbies, kids, studies, many things more than me. I think I was not offering unconditional love, and I was being needy and demanding. Now, I'm trying to be like your horse.
I too got involved with someone else, and it helped me realize how much my W and my family meant to me. I ended my A, before my W knew about it (I've confessed since her bomb). Unfortunately for me, my W and her 'first love' (Sara, my W felt like you, that she married the wrong boyfriend, and this OM was her real true love. I'm still shaken by my W's whole EA/PA, WAS, but she came back. So that says something) had an A and it didn't, yet?, help her realize how much she loves me.
Is the lesson that we should be like pets? I think at least as far as unconditional love is concerned, yes.
M45, W45,S15, D10, Bomb 10/3/06, Moved back in 11/6/06, finally ILY 9/07 last thread
but it did seem to help turn some sort of corner.