Coming out of our "entitlement" ruts?

[**zuzu**]

LFL,

You are exactly right and I KNOW that that is not helpful. I don't deny that at all. It's rare I feel, that I bring the situation up, this was a couple weeks ago. HOWEVER, I do NOT feel like I will still be doing that to him in the year (let's see 2007+15) 2022!!!!!!!!! And that is what he is doing to me. (He actually said something when we were eating out a few months ago, "Oh, my favorite song!" when a song I danced with a guy to came on.)

I found out about him and Pam March 30th. It is not yet June 30th, so 3 months and he acts like I am a total psycho nut job when I "mention" it. I know that wasn't productive, but you know what would make it easiest for me to get past it? Him to admit to his own wrongdoing instead of incessantly downplaying it and acting like I have no right to mention it. That is like telling a dieter not to think about food, it just makes me worse. This is the exact same position he is in right now. When he gets REALLY into the mudslinging, I mean practically calling me a slut, like yesterday when he told me point blank he was a chump who should have told me to F off and he should have never married me or had kids with me, I start defending and saying, "Don't call it cheating." and we get into that semantics fight. He is best when I am totally submissive and apologetic about the whole situation, which I HAVE been. I also stepped up our sex life, offered to swallow his cum, initiated anal sex, etc. and he STILLLLLLLLLL gets in some funk for 3 days because he had to go to a counseling session and talk about details, THEN has the audacity to blame us not having sex for several days on ME. It's this constant hyprocritical crap that I am tiring of. It seems it's never enough, no matter what I do and it makes me tired of trying, so I slip into my entitlement.

I do appreciate the advice. I'm just trying to figure all of my feelings out about this. I know I'm contributing to the problem at times, just like he is. Thanks for the insight.

Cadesmom,
I don't think I would be "invited." I think it would be a trip paid for by Discovery Channel and he would be going with his boss, who he always travels with. (Just like when he met Pam.)

[LustForLife]

All I really can think of in response to everything you have written is "People treat you the way you allow them to treat you."
Where are your self-respect boundaries??
I just cannot imagine a man saying to me half the dreadful things your H has said to you. It just WOULD NOT happen. Do I control what other men do? NO. But I can control my response to their actions and you have ALLOWED this to get to this point.
I'm not saying you are all at fault here, but your H is not here to listen, YOU are.
Don't you see how you are contributing to the way your H responds?
LFL

[RedHeadWife]

I just still see you both going 'round & 'round in circles and no one is trying to break the cycle. I understand that you feel that he should be acting differently, but HE'S NOT. Therefore, you are going to need to be the one to change things and try to get beyond all of the cr*p. It's not going to stop until someone stops it. You not wanting to have sex last night or whenever it was because you didn't feel like it and then actually saying things along those lines was totally what I'm talking about. You need to stop that stuff whether you feel justified or not. I also agree w/ LFL. If my H said some of the things Joey has said to you, I would not be sticking around. That's NOT OK. I commented on that before though. That's total emotional abuse in my book.

[**zuzu**]

This is where I'M stuck, ladies. I'm married to this man, I do not want to get divorced. I want us to be happy.

SO, you agree that some of the things that he does are NOT OK. But I am supposed to fix them by giving him what he wants? I can't wrap my head around it in a way that makes logical sense to me. I think what has happened is that I was finally doing what needed to be done to fix things, then started feeling entitled again and we both began our vicious cycles. I hear what you guys are saying, I'm just having a hard time putting the two together and see the resulting action that needs to take place. The REASON I have a hard time stepping up and doing what needs done is because I get sidetracked by his behavior/words. I see the vicious cycle - I've seen it for years. I don't know how to permanently break it.

Thank you for following along and trying to help me. I suck at this.

[LustForLife]

Stopping this cycle is very hard.
There is no way to do it without getting it across to him that you are NOT going to be treated that way anymore.
A good start would be to stop engaging him in these fights. Be the better person. Stop attacking back when he attacks you. If he continues to attack, then you will need to have a strong boundary there. That may ultimately be S or D.
I know you want to make this work. I just do not see an easy way to make that happen. Some people say to appease him more and that may work at times. But I am emotionally exhausted just reading about the efforts you have made to "make it right" so to speak. It is not something you can force. He does not respect you and your boundaries (which are non-existent, so...) You will need to start with You and worry about what he is doing less, for now. That is hard but it is probably necessary. He is not going to change first.
LFL

[**zuzu**]

I think it was Choco who at one point here on the board said he had a vague understanding of what philosophy he should have, but was having a hard time coming to terms with what BEHAVIORS and ACTIONS that related to. That's where I'm at. I need some hand holding and specifics. I'm really quite surprised at some of the responses I've gotten here. It's eye opening. I never thought about the fact that I have zero boundaries. Maybe that's true. Can you tell me more, LFL? I'm honestly trying to see my R and my own contributions to it through new eyes.

[RedHeadWife]

Well, like I said, you need to try to stop doing things that are starting and/or continuing the arguments/fights/whatever. That is what I'm talking about as far as YOU trying to get things back on the right track.

I agree you need to set some boundaries as far as what he has been saying to you and make sure he knows that it's not ok to be abusing in that way, however, it seems he did try w/ the roses and then he did initiate the other night and you kind of 'threw it in his face.' Thus the cycle continues.

I understand your "entitlement" issues, however, you learning to trust him again has to be a decision you make and it can't be based on whether or not he is continuing to have issues w/ the 1992 thing. Yes, he needs to do/say things to make sure you know that you can trust him again, however, you stewing about it and EXPECTING (there's those expectations again) him to say & do things constantly to somehow make it up to you isn't going to help anything. As far as he's concerned, it's over & done w/. There no longer is any OW/EA so it's time to move on. The fact that he had an EA via email and his 1992 issues are not connected in any way. It seems you feel since he has issues w/ the 1992 thing, you are entitled to have issues w/ his EA. Well, somebody has to get on w/ things and start going forward at some point. Stewing about things are going to make them go away or make them better or make your M any better.

[LustForLife]

I don't have all the answers that's for sure. Would I be here if I did?
All I know is it took me a while to realize how important boundaries really are in a R/M. Without maintaining the boundaries, the respect factor is nil.
Most of my M is in great shape. We do respect each other now and treat each other with love and kindness. The sex issue is still a never ending work in progress but even that is so much better. We don't fight about it anymore and we both Know that the boundary is there. The SL needs to be adressed in a healthy fashion or we will not survive as a M couple. We used to use anger/avoidance to deal with it. But now we can at least talk about it and not build resentment. Had another productive talk last night in fact.
Anyways, you are going at each other with such venom and disrespect at times it's going to have to be addressed first before you manage to actually have a happy, healthy SL and M. The foundation of your house is shaky at best. It's no wonder the SL is a mess and the possibility of A's and mistrust is at an all time high.
Nothing was Really accomplished in my M until after the separation. That can be an option that does not always lead to D. It can actually force the couple to rebuild a new R and start over in a sense. BUT both couples have to be on board to make that happen.
It is usually a much longer process to try and manage these issues while still in the midst of the M turmoil. If neither partner is willing to change and re-establish boundaries, you can live a lifetime in that mess. I know you don't want that. I have seen this in several M's where both people say they would never think of S or D and will just live with the craziness. That is a choice. Many couples unfortunately sort of give up on making any changes in the R simply because they are M and why bother. Unfortunately again, one spouse usually gets annoyed and resentful of this approach and decides to go off and have an A, or whatever. M needs to always be a work in progress. That is one thing I have learned, along with the boundaries. Get out of your rut. Maintain your respect. The M can only benefit for it.
LFL

[Crazy Eddie]

LFL,
I found out about him and Pam March 30th. It is not yet June 30th, so 3 months and he acts like I am a total psycho nut job when I "mention" it. I know that wasn't productive, but you know what would make it easiest for me to get past it? Him to admit to his own wrongdoing instead of incessantly downplaying it and acting like I have no right to mention it.

I'll bet he figures he didn't actually do anything wrong, since he controlled himself... he gave up a friendship to spare your feelings, and yet you're still giving him grief about it three months after he already gave in to you. Obviously, you see it differently. Yet another impasse to untangle before y'all can get along well.

I don't have a clue what's up with the 1992 thing. Mrs. Eddie and I had lots of fights and breakups in that year, but I barely remember them. Interestingly enough, though, every other year or so she still brings up a night I spent visiting a female friend of mine and crashing in a hotel room with her; she insists that "something" happened even though it didn't. But it's only an issue for a hour every other year or so. I couldn't imagine either of us bringing anything up from that long ago on a near-daily basis. I'll just say he needs more counseling and leave it at that.

This is the exact same position he is in right now. When he gets REALLY into the mudslinging, I mean practically calling me a slut, like yesterday when he told me point blank he was a chump who should have told me to F off and he should have never married me or had kids with me, I start defending and saying, "Don't call it cheating." and we get into that semantics fight. He is best when I am totally submissive and apologetic about the whole situation, which I HAVE been.

OK, now I've got some ideas. Maybe the whole 1992 thing is his way of saying that he hasn't been happy with you ever since, that he gave you another chance "against his better judgement" and wishes he hadn't. Whether it's true or not, people have a way of rewriting history according to the way they feel at the moment. It takes a lot of reflection to untangle fuzzy memories and get at what really happened and how one really felt at the time. He's not happy now, he's being a drama king and saying he's never been happy with you ever since 1992, and he regrets getting back together with you because it led to his present unhappiness.

You may not be able to do anything about this. He's probably unhappy for his own reasons and blaming it on you. Lots of people think that a spouse should make you happy, and when it doesn't happen, it's obviously the spouse's fault.

[**zuzu**]

You're right. Thank you, CM. That's when things were going well, when I was following all the rules, so to speak, trying to fill his cup without expecting anything in return, but it all kind of went to hell when he started to feel entitled to rake me through the mud again after his last session. Remember he was cold for two days and when I felt he was not talking about it to me, but biting my head off over everyday stuff, I called enough and said I was sick of him treating me that way for "no reason." We all know the reason, but it wasn't based on anything I'd done. (That's when I said I feel as though I've been walking on eggshells. He copped major attitude saying I SHOULD have to put up with it and it went from there, because I DON'T feel I should have to put up with it.

My issues with his email thing are getting much further and fewer between. I'm not keeping it at the forefront because of his behavior. I do think in an unconscious way I began stewing because I felt that in general I had bent over backwards and he had swept his indiscretions under the rug. That hypocrisy is the thing that drives me absolutely mad.

Ok, so where to go from here. Begin acting as if, with NO EXPECTATIONS. Trust him 100% because he HAS SHOWN that he is trustworthy. I believe that in my heart. Even when he threatens, I REALLY don't believe he will do anything unless things change, like we move towards divorce or something major.

I wish I could understand better and manage the feelings I had last night when he approached me sexually. I knew I was coming at it from a very unproductive standpoint, but I couldn't help myself and at times I was laying there cringing, thankfully he couldn't tell in the dark, but I know my body language told him all he needed to know. Here's something. I know this sounds weird, but right before hand, when I was on the computer, I was casually reading MSNBC articles and videos, etc. I like the Dateline stuff. Well, I saw that the host of the To Catch a Predator series has written a book. I watched that show once or twice and it haunted me for a day or so. I avoid it now. But I found it interesting, so watched several segments. I don't know WHY I would direct my discomfort toward my HUSBAND, I have never been molested, but I know my mother was. I somehow was really turned off by the way he approached me in a purely sexual manner. That's why even though I knew at the time, I was messing up, I called him on it and said are you doing this for me or for you? He was doing it for him, because he connects that way, and I would have WAY PREFERRED that scenario to be PREFACED with eye contact and some kind and loving words. Dare I say apologetic? I know at some point you have to just accept the idiosyncracies of your mate's ways, but I feel like I get so LITTLE verbal affirmation, I really crave it.

Ok, just some thoughts I'm pouring out here. Gonna go change scenery for a while.

Thanks so much, everyone. ALL comments and advice welcome.