All she will say is "What if it doesn't work? I can't 'do this' again!" meaning, be in this place again where Choc. says "I will no longer live in a sex-less, affection-less marriage. I have called her on it 3 years ago and 5 years ago and several times before that, each without any real sustainable improvement from her, and I think she's just tired of having a mirror held up to her own issues.
Well, in all fairness Choco, this has more to do with BOTH of your issues, the marital issues, the way you are TOGETHER. Look, I know how she feels. It feels good to around people that make you feel good about yourself. She is neck deep in it and can't think of a way to go back to where she was before. In all fairnness, why should she? Why should you? Were you happy? I'm not saying don't fight for the M. I'm just saying she has valid points (beyond the A) that have to do with YOUR R and M. My H and I still have tons of cr*p to deal with in our M and lots of it STILL has to so with the sexual disconnect. Some days I think, wtf am I doing? Other days it's not so bad. Your W is ONLY thinking of a way out right now. There is nothing you can do to change her mind. She needs to figure it out herself. Thus, the whole DETACHMENT approach. I know you are not ready for that now but it may be headed in that direction. Let her flounder around in the real world for a while and make her own way. She needs to do that. Holding on tight is just not going to help it seems. I may be wrong but that seemed to be the best approach with my H. He wanted to reconcile when I detached. And not a minute before. But maybe it is differnt in your M. Only you will know for sure. It's going to be a long road either way. And sometimes it seems like the road is never going to end. LFL
So, since this has started, every book I've read, every website I've visited, every effort I've invested has gone toward trying to save my marriage. Every book she has read, every website she's visited, every effort she has invested has gone toward trying to get OUT of the marriage.
Do you see the common denominator here? Even though you two are taking opposite actions, they are both in response to the same thing and that is fear – fear of being abandoned, rejected, whatever. The one thing neither of you are doing is recognizing and validating each other’s needs. Your apologizing and her forgiving is a good step, but there is a lot more to be done.
You condemn her for running. She condemns you for chasing. Your actions suffocate her. Her actions trigger your abandonment. You want her to stop running so you chase harder, she wants you to stop chasing so she runs faster (even though she really wants you to chase). You two are in a self-reinforcing cycle that will only lead to destruction of the M, regardless of what those “experts” say. You are using the stick, but I see no carrot.
I believe that you believe you are doing the right thing and have the best of intentions. But you are fighting a game of control. More importantly, even if you feel you are doing everything not to control her, if she feels controlled, then she feels controlled, and the self reinforcing cycle continues. Sure she has the responsibility to deal with her own guilt, her own feeling of engulfment, her projections, etc., but it is much easier to dump these responsibilities onto the type of person who does not run, than to put it on someone like your wife who refuses to take them on. That makes your job doubly frustrating.
In the end, you cannot force her or control her. You can only hold to your boundaries and offer choices, making those choices either painful or rewarding and hope she chooses as you want her to (personally I consider this a form of covert control, but that’s an old debate). The self reinforcing cycle can only continue with your input. You have as much power to stop this as she does.
"I'm only going to go to counseling so people will think that I'm trying,"
I just have to comment on this one Choc.
As much as we (the BS) would love to think that when our S says they will go to counselling with us it also means all contact has been broken off with the OP, we are only deceiving ourselves.
I would venture to say that the majority of the betrayers are still in contact, in one form or other, with the OP. It seems there are a lot of people even on these boards that can vouch for that. Now, is that a good thing? Heck no! And I totally agree that before you can start working 100% at repairing the damage an A has caused, the OP has to be out of the picture totally. However, that is not usually reality.
My H and I went for counselling for 10 months and it was discovered several times during that time period that my H was still in contact with the OW - yes, he was weening himself off and the visits and/or telephone calls were getting less and less but he was still doing it. And I am NOT the only one this has happened too
Maybe she is going to counselling so that people will think she is tryig but it is better than her not going at all isn't it? In one of the books I read (can't remember which one) the author's H tells of how he and his wife were counselling people and preaching about marriage when he knew he was deceiving her himself. This eventually got to him and he confessed and turned his life around. Maybe the MC will eventually get through to your wife too and put enough guilt into her that she will want to turn her life around too.
Heywyre
M - 57 H - 65 1st A-bomb - Nov 27/02 2nd A-bomb - Dec 13/06 together 21 years *************************** Insanity is doing something over and over and expecting different results (Albert Einstein)
And I totally agree that before you can start working 100% at repairing the damage an A has caused, the OP has to be out of the picture totally.
I agree with this as well, and I've been on the cheating side of the fence. I have a great deal more respect for my H because he drew the lines that he did than I would if he'd have been a doormat. I also think it is to be expected that contact would continue in some shape or form if the betrayed spouse doesn't make it absolutely, 100%, no doubt about it CLEAR that the cheater CANNOT have their lover AND their family. I didn't even have any feelings whatsoever for the person I betrayed my H with and I can tell you that had the boundaries not been crystal clear, I probably would have tested them, probably not even consciously at first.
Choco, you do what feels right because you have to live with yourself and your decisions every day for the rest of your life. So does she. And I know if you stick to your guns on how you feel, if your wife does come back to you, you will have a much better chance of receiving the woman that you wanted all along as opposed to a woman who is still half decided, half testing you. Your heart has been broken once, you let her know in no uncertain terms that she will not do that to you again.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
And I totally agree that before you can start working 100% at repairing the damage an A has caused, the OP has to be out of the picture totally.
I agree with this as well, and I've been on the cheating side of the fence. I have a great deal more respect for my H because he drew the lines that he did than I would if he'd have been a doormat. I also think it is to be expected that contact would continue in some shape or form if the betrayed spouse doesn't make it absolutely, 100%, no doubt about it CLEAR that the cheater CANNOT have their lover AND their family. I didn't even have any feelings whatsoever for the person I betrayed my H with and I can tell you that had the boundaries not been crystal clear, I probably would have tested them, probably not even consciously at first.
Choco, you do what feels right because you have to live with yourself and your decisions every day for the rest of your life. So does she. And I know if you stick to your guns on how you feel, if your wife does come back to you, you will have a much better chance of receiving the woman that you wanted all along as opposed to a woman who is still half decided, half testing you. Your heart has been broken once, you let her know in no uncertain terms that she will not do that to you again.
Yes -- what she said.
Thanks, Heather. That is exactly how I feel. I'm going to have to live with whatever outcome here, so I have to go with my informed gut instincts.
This isn't really in response to anything in particular, but to your sitch in general. Maybe Cobra prompted it a bit, but it's mostly just that you've gotten me to thinking. There is no pattern or point to this; it's just some random thoughts. You know that we have a lot in common, bit in my case, I was the one to have the A and to want out. In that respect, I guess I can identify with your W. If there is a point to this, I suppose it's to give you some insight into what's going on with her.
First of all, when I was at the point where your W seems to be, I seriously doubt that there was anything my W could have done to break up the A or to change my POV. Literally everything she said or did to oppose me in any way just made things worse. No matter how well-intentioned it might have been, I saw things from my own distorted perspective. By the time the A came out, my mind was made up that I was getting out. Anything opposing that goal was viewed as either spite or unwillingness to face up to the facts. Morals and boundaries fell into the same categories. I don't think I ever said it out loud, but when she tried the morals approach, my gut reaction was that it was a scam. She had never even made an effort to hold up her half of the M, yet when I had finally had enough, she was trying to pull out morals and fidelity to keep me in it. She, who had NEVER participated in the M, was actually berating ME for wanting to end it!?! It was laughable. It was like hiring a contractor to build your house and after 15 years, he still hasn't started. So you find another contractor and the first one starts yelling, "But we have a contract..." Laughable.
So reading about your W and remembering those feelings, I started thinking about what she could have done and what my reactions would have been. Sadly, I don't think there was anything she could have done. Obligation didn't work; I felt like the guy with the new contractor who had actually started work on the house. Morals didn't work; I didn't see that I was wrong to seek out a new life when my W had failed to even try to address my needs at any time during our 15-year M. Money held no sway; I would have paid any amount to just be free from the misery. D2 (then) didn't matter either. I had completely bought into the idea that kids are resilient and that staying in a bad M isn't doing them any good anyway. Even my own religious beliefs didn't sway me. I had convinced myself that God would see things my way. I knew that He wouldn't hold me to the M when it had never really even been more than cohabitation. He defined M as a partnership, and we had never had that.
The only thing that might have worked was for her to start trying to address some of my needs. Your sitch is a little different here though. If I remember correctly, you've been bending over backward trying to meet her needs. For me, just showing some concern for my needs and trying to address them, even unsuccessfully, might have done the trick. But that's because one of the big wedges between us was that I didn't think that W even cared what my needs might have been. So I'm tempted to tell you that, but I don't have a clue as to what needs you aren't meeting or what it is she's getting from the A that she isn't getting from you. But in all honesty, I don't know if that would have worked on me anyway. I say that it might have, but since she didn't try, I'll never know. There is the distinct possibility that I would have looked at it as either too little too late, or as just a desperate and insincere attempt to get me to come back. No real change, just doing what she had to do to get me to come back.
We did do MC while I was still actively involved with the OW. In fact, we were living together. I was going to C, not to save the M, but to help W to deal with the breakup. The C was pretty crafty though. He went along on the surface, but all the time he was working on me. I was just too blind to see it. I was seeing the OW when W and I had our 'talk'. I was living with the OW during the D. I was still living with the OW as W and I began getting back together. I still saw the OW several times after W and I got remarried. I even had sex with her two or three times. Weaning myself from her was hard. In retrospect, it was stupid. Cold turkey would have been much better. But like I said, I was seeing everything from a completely different perspective then. Now I can't even imagine what I could have seen in a woman who would mess around with another woman's H even while he was getting back together with his W. What could I have been thinking???
So I have no advice other than hang in there and do what you think is best. I told Mojo that just reading about her sitch has helped me to see things in my own. I just hope that maybe you can see something in my story that might help you.
Bube The only thing that might have worked was for her to start trying to address some of my needs. But when their needs exceed your needs, how does the above happen? Lou
