Some couples start out rocky and dramatic and continue with that level of interaction throughout the M. Zuzu's M seems to be a good example. 1992? When I was in college, I had a very rocky passion-filled R. We'd date for months, break up, date other people, get back together, you know the drill. Well I ended up sleeping with a police officer on one of our "breaks" and he flipped out. He had issues with the police in general so he thought that was the ultimate F-You I guess. Never really talked again after that. Went over his boundary for sure. My point is that sometimes a person can only deal with so much "chaos" in their R's and maybe your H is really struggling with his decision to break his "boundary." Whether that boundary should be there or not is not really helpful right now. HE thinks you did something unforgiveable and he is mentally going to pieces trying to accept his own choices. The 1992 date is just incredible though. To be so mentally tortured for all those years over it just seems masochistic. I'm glad he is in C. No advice really, just giving another perspective. Nop had some good advice. Hard to break the chaotic R patterns though, I know. LFL
I honestly think your best bet is to just stop talking to him about it or bringing it up. I'm not taking his side AT ALL or saying he's right or anything, but NOP is the expert here and he seems to think, kind of like what I was saying when I said to just act like nothing's going on, you need to just sit back and do your thing for H and see what happens.
I know it doesn't seem fair necessarily, but no more talking about not wanting to walk on eggshells anymore, etc.
Maybe smiling & nodding is the best way to go
I'm not making light of your sitch, I just honestly don't know what to tell you. Sometimes just hearing about it isn't enough, you know? I am not actually seeing & hearing what's going on between the two of you.
Make a nice dinner for him tonight and just act like everything's great & wonderful & see what happens.
Me: 38 H: 35 S4, S5, S10 Bomb 01/07 Wanted D - nothing would change his mind Numerous A's prior to D bomb; EA prior/during D bomb Piecing 04/07 Deployed for a year 05/07 Still Piecing 2010 M 11 yrs 05/10
I think I have written to you about this before, but you need to leave your girlfriends out of the loop when you are discussing issues private to the marriage. That should be between you and hubby and possibly disinterested outside observers.
I thought at first the he was stuck. That happens to people. I don't believe that is the case as much as he has no sense of security with you.
What I think he sees is you having gone flaky on him once, and every time you disengage from the marriage (avoiding discussions, going to girlfriends to avoid uncomfortable situations, etc), he fears the same thing will happen again. Each time, he questions his decision to be married to you.
That loop repeats itself in your relationship. The problem is that each iteration only makes the resentment, and the insecurity, deeper.
The way to fix that is to stop avoiding conflict in the relationship. You can start by removing; spending the night away, sharing private marital issues with friends, taking advice from girlfriends, and by directly addressing issues with your husband as they come up. You can do that without shouting, or losing your cool.
You need to change the way you handle conflict with your husband. Prove that you will stay in the midst of the storm, no matter what. Do it unfailingly.
Next, you need a ready answer to his issue with the past. I suggest that you acknowledge his pain each time it comes up, and absolutely stop being dismissive of his pain or his opinion of the past. They are as valid as your concerns for the marriage.
Tell me what you think so far.
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Zuzu, the number one thing I would eliminate if I were you would be the quickness to leave and stay with your girlfriends. That's not an action that instills a sense of commitment to the marriage.
Also, is there a mature long-time married woman among your acquaintances you could talk to as opposed to your girlfriends? Most of your close friends are going to see the situation from your vantage point and be offended on your behalf. That's not a position that lends itself to helpful advice.
I'm not your husband, but if I were in his position I might find myself feeling as if I was being assessed by a gaggle of women who didn't hold me in much regard. And it's bound to impact how he feels about the time you spend with them since he is probably going to see them as opponents. And it's also going to impact how he feels about *you* every time you're in contact with them.
Good points MrsNop. Especially the part about "immature".
Zuzu, when you post, it comes off like a high school/college R drama. NOT a M. I don't want to offend, just state how I interpret your posts. That is also why I referenced my chaotic college R. I can't imagine still living it. You are, in a sense, and I feel for you. BUT you are adding fuel to this fire. Even back in the day, I NEVER told my girlfriends about half the stuff that was going on in my R and now that I am M, it is definitely none of their business. You need firmer boundaries in that area. Your H is losing respect for you on that front, with just cause I'd say. Stop talking to everyone who will listen. Talk to HIM. LFL
Hold on, I totally appreciate and respect the opinions and advice, but I think you guys are getting the wrong picture somewhat. First, I RARELY contact my girlfriends. I just don't bring it up, but when I do, I feel like it's important they hear the WHOLE SHEBANG because if they heard the SUMMARY, they would immediately say, THAT'S RIDICULOUS! Also, they are mature (in personality - they're not AARP members) and all in committed relationships (ok, the one who has known me the longest is just now getting married). They're all around my age, I just turned 35. The other one married the same week Joey and I did, the other one for several years. Second, HE DOES NOT HAVE ANY IDEA that I am emailing them when I do it. Yes, he does say sometimes, do they know all about what's going on with us, and I try to be sensitive and say, No, we really don't talk about it that much. I DON'T get in his face and say, Well, so-and-so thinks I'm nuts for putting up with this! I know how futile and destructive that would be.
I was coasting along in my marriage, taking care of my second child when the [censored] hit the fan. I don't want this drama, it just WON'T GO AWAY!! I was patient and apologetic for YEARS and I feel like I still have been. Today, the most I said was, "I'm tired of walking on eggshells" and I was referring to the fact that I felt he had been short at best and treating me like crap at worst since his session Monday night, which he had not discussed with me. I knew stuff had probably been discussed which is emotional for him, but he didn't share anything with me, just exuded a chip on his shoulder. Today, when I asked a simple question, trying to get clarification on something he was sharing with me, he got rudely indignant and I thought to myself, "ENOUGH!" I didn't KNOW I was "bringing up the past" but I guess I should have ASSUMED that's what was eating at him. I feel like I am letting him treat me like crap when he pulls that, "I'm hurt and I can't be nice to you right now" attitude ... esp out of the blue.
So, I'm not calling him up and sharing with him that I emailed my friends and I'm not bringing up the past, except when it's the elephant in the room, I'm not avoiding it.
Example, the night he came home from the session, I made sure he had a leftover plate of dinner, tried to be cheerful, etc. We watched some funny tv together. I snuggled up to him and he coldly said, "I'm not feeling close right now." I accepted it, said I was sorry he felt that way and went back to my side. I didn't roll my eyes, get all huffy and tell him to get over it. I just feel like when I'm too accepting, it's almost like I'm letting him abuse me and I'm admitting to being a cheater, which I do NOT consider myself.
Finally, when I first read DB'ing and started trying to "get a life" and "detach" I would often be gone from the house when he got home. Or I would call him and say I was going to visit a friend's house, run to the mall, whatever. I think it's GOOD for him to come home to an empty house occasionally, drink a beer and get a chance to change his clothes and check his emails without us being there. I do that to be NICE, but when I started doing it more consciously, from the advice of the book, (because I couldn't very well ask him to "babysit" after working all day because I'm "getting a life") he took it as a bad "vibe" that I was checking out or something. I told him that was not true, I was just trying to give us space and reduce the conflict, which it accomplished.
I don't ever threaten to go to a girlfriend's - I might sometimes spend an evening there so my daughter can play and I can visit, but I don't dramatically say, "I'm leaving" and run out in a hizzy.
Ok, I'm gonna go read more carefully and reply again. I just gave my son a bath and put him down for nap and have to get dinner started and get off here soon.
Mrs. Nop, there is one very well respected family friend who I email regularly with. It is rather embarrassing to share details of my marriage with her, but I said something recently in an email to her. (She is a nurse and in her 50's.) Here it was:
Joey and I are actually seeing a counselor weekly to work out some old stuff from the past. I thought things were fine, (busy, but fine), but Joey was having some issues. We are doing a little better now. It's been sort of challenging for us. He mentioned you and Brian as the type of couple he would like to be (one of the few he knows of). How do you do it? You are both so laid back and easy to get along with. We are trying and ARE doing much better. We have made a real effort not to fight in front of the kids, because we were starting to do that and I know how badly that affects them.
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Now...about you guys. I hope your counselor is empathetic to both sides. Brian and I went through counselling in our early days and it sucked. Of course this was before kids and the counselor was obviously on Brian's side, etc. I know you've heard our story, but we went our separate ways. It took that 10 months apart to make us stronger now. We reminisce about those days and talk about our feelings during that time, maybe once a year or so. Keep your relationship spicy and interesting. We have our separate professional lives, but when we're together - we're together. Brian still thinks I don't listen to him sometimes, but he talks about everything and anything and sometimes I really don't listen, but... Brian has been a challenge at times because he has so many interests and I want him to be happy, but I also want him to bring home a paycheck, so... finding that niche is hard. He loves teaching, but sometimes he talks about picking up and doing something else. I just let him work through it without adding too much. As for myself, I know what I want out of life: I want to help people by nursing and educate those who are inexperienced with their particular disease, mallady, whatever. I want to have quick, easy access to my kids and grandkids. I want to have a home that is comfortable and spacious for everyone to move around in. I want to be able to see trees and flowers and grass out my door. and I'd love to live in a country that cared less about money and more about conservation and peace. I can say that I have all but the last. I've made my family my life and country. Robin, you are a wonderful mother and person. I also know that you put everything you have into loving your family - cooking, entertaining, educating, homemaking. I don't know what your OLD stuff is in you and Joey's relationship, but you have to bond your circle now. Your role models for relationships are not your fault. You and Joey have what it takes. Talk it out - however painful - and yes, away from Sam and Mari if possible. Their role models are you and Joey. I do not have any prophetic words to give you, but just to love each other and break the cycle of ending life together and bond it tightly. Hang on and enjoy the ride. We love you all. Come visit if you can. I told you we would try to come see you guys too. We really want to. Love always
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Well, things are going better between Joey and I. Thank you for your words of wisdom, they are you know. I have tried to focus my energies on "advice" from sources that are obviously pro-marriage, because I have no desire to divorce. We are well past that hump now, but still have a ways to go in being completely happy. Both of us trying has really helped. (Just between you and I, the stuff from the past is when I dumped Joey, thinking it was the right thing to do, about 1.5 years into our relationship, 1992. We were apart for a total of 3 months or so, with lots of tears and on again/off again crap. I hurt him deeply because he never wanted it. I was more into partying and had suddenly felt settled down with him. I was 18. In March, I caught him emailing a woman he had met at a conference and was flirting pretty heavily. Fortunately, she lives in Texas, so it was just an email thing, but you can imagine how that was for me. Very out of the blue from my vantage point. He says he had been expressing how unhappy he was for the previous year. I thought it was typical "new baby" stuff, you know? I didn't know about you and Brian early in your relationship. It's hard for me to hear Joey downplaying his email thing at the same time that he is so furious with me over stuff that happened 15 years ago.) I try to remind myself that noone's marriage is perfect, and we can get through this.
Anyhow .... sigh ... we ARE doing better and that's good.
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Oh....honey. 18yrs old and he can't forget that? He better. I'm glad things are working out. Geez! this email crap between men and women or whoever that don't know each other... It's easy to camoflauge over the internet. I have been so...oo jealous of women that Brian has come into contact with over the years and some of it was warranted. I had it out with a couple of women who tagged along on some field trips. I'm a crazy woman!! No, you're right. Noone's marriage is perfect, but how boring I guess if they were. Enjoy your trip to Las Vegas! That'll be fun!! Again...love always
I don't want to sound as if I'm dismissing your advice, but I really do think I am showing him I'm here for the long haul. My displays of "I don't know what to do anymore" are generally in private here or with a girlfriend. He said he wanted a divorce, but I'm not sure he totally meant it and I went berserk. HE KNOWS beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am committed to our relationship. Right before we entered counseling, I hung signs around our house, because I was trying to share with him some of what I was reading without "sitting him down".
On our family calendar... Our family deserves a peaceful home.
On our refrigerator... Give your family your BEST SELF!
In our bathroom... What can I do to make my spouse happy today?
On the back of our bedroom door... The best gift we can give to our children is parents who truly LOVE and RESPECT each other-and SHOW IT!
Above our bathroom mirror... No matter what- I am the one in control of my emotions, speech and actions.
The best place for a child is in a home with two parents who make their family the TOP PRIORITY and show love, respect, humility, and compassion.
I also hung a thing I printed off Dr. Phil.com about how to stop fighting in front of your kids. He simply said, "I saw that you hung some signs." I pulled down the "what can I do for my spouse today" when he was out of town, but the others are still up. They are good reminders, I think.
zuzu wrote: " HE KNOWS beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am committed to our relationship."
His spoken insecurities would indicate otherwise.
I know that this is not all your fault. I understand that he is being difficult. From my point of view, you are here, and I can't talk to him. That means that you will have to be the one to do the work, at least initially.
From what you have posted, it appears to me that he is close to walking, or getting mixed up in a situation that will quadruple the trouble you are already having. I hate to see that happen to you.
I hope that you will re-read the suggestions that have been made to you. Press into your husband rather than adding distance. I don't mean be needy or grabby, but available to him, even when he is being a jerk. I am not suggesting that you eat crap forever, just long enough to allay some of his fears.
He is going to have to come to terms with his issue with you, but that is unlikely to happen as long as his fears are being fed - from his point of view, not yours.
The fact that he has gone to counseling indicates that he is willing to face his issues. I don't blame him for walking out of the counselors office when he was basically being directed to "just get over it". Obviously, he can't, or he would have already.
His problem with the past may not make sense to you, but think about this, you have issues with your past, when you were a child, right? Being older doesn't mean that situations don't arise that have long term affects on a person, ask any betrayed spouse, or divorced person if they have issues with the past.
If you put two people through the same situation, one may come out traumatized, the other laughing. People often react differently to the same situation.
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Really bad news as of today. I feel so exhausted and defeated. I guess you could sum things up as...yes, going to my girlfriends for advice was a bad idea, because it created in me a *sense of entitlement* about the way things are going/treatment I'm getting and my stewing about our sitch seeped through my words and INFURIATED him. I don't even know where to begin with what went on last night. I really did not feel like I said anything so extreme, but he said
1) I've erased all the good of the last two months 2) I am a "rusty anchor" around his neck 3) He feels I have given up, as of last weekend (??) 4) He said I have never understood how much I hurt him (I know the unspoken ending to that sentence is that he wants to go out and do the "same" to me (even though we're married now and it's not 1992) to let me know how it feels 5) He said that I don't even remember/realize that their were SEVERAL people he had sex with during our break, and the fact that those relationships don't bother me today PROVES that I didn't give a sh!t about him.
I'm trying to not spend all day on here b/c when I do, I neglect being with my kids. I have to go for now but will try and post more details later. I know that based on the fact that things are worse today, you guys are gonna slam me. It's ok, I can take it, but you know what, I DID change, we WERE better, and all of a sudden, he got upset again and treated me cold and when I confronted him (gently and respectfully I thought), he copped a "you SHOULD have to take it" attitude. Well, for how long? Indefinitely?? I told him no, I HAVE SHOWN that I am sorry, we dealt with this at the time, we came back together, we married, we had children, we loved each other and built a life. I said, "I respect your feelings. I respect the situation and all that went on. I have apologized many times over how I have hurt you. But I will not apologize for the rest of my life and put up with disrespectful treatment from my husband because I am viewed as a cheating piece of trash who you regret taking back." I believe that he is unhappy, but I am at my wit's end trying to fix the past.
I'm not editing, I'm just clicking submit. Thanks for following along. Even if it seems like I'm immature and not trying, I really feel like I'm painted in a corner and trying very hard not to bite back, but occasionally I do.
You are, in a sense, and I feel for you. BUT you are adding fuel to this fire. Even back in the day, I NEVER told my girlfriends about half the stuff that was going on in my R and now that I am M, it is definitely none of their business. You need firmer boundaries in that area. Your H is losing respect for you on that front, with just cause I'd say. Stop talking to everyone who will listen. Talk to HIM.