I agree with you in part that cutting off relations is the best approach, but there is a risk, and while many have recovered their marriages, many others have pushed it right off the cliff. It feels good for a while to say you did the right thing and the spouse was wrong to continue the affair, but D is still D. If she can cut off the relationship cold turkey, then great, but so far I don’t see signs of that. I think what you have done so far is the right thing. I just think going forward you need to re-evaluate.
She is still in the house with you. You are still married. Counseling can still fix this marriage, even if she has some contact with the OM. There are lots of couples who have been able to do just this, so don’t think that having her cut off relations entirely is the only path. Is see her hanging on to the OM as not just an addiction, but as a safe haven away from you. Forcing her to cut of the affair might work, it might not. Things might not change until the stakes are so high and the damage so severe that she capitulates or walks. Those are not the kind of probabilities I would want to stake my recovery on. She is addicted because of her fear, and breaking this kind of addiction can be a gradual process.
I'm not proposing in any way that you ease her guilt, but she has to have something positive to work toward. And contrary to your comment OTB, I do think Choc has a LOT to prove to Mrs.Choc. There is no way she can be solely faulted for the withholding that occurred in the marriage. Both of them did their own withholding. She is trying to state this. How much truth there is in her version is debatable, but that does not really matter. If she believes it, she believes it, and she must be validated. Other wise she will seek validation elsewhere. Just be careful.
I think cobra's point is that at this point how can Mrs. choc "save face"? Is her only way back into the marriage to grovel and be contrite and agree 100% that she is totally at fault and the scum of the earth? Yes, of course, she should be contrite... but how can she preserve some shred of pride?
I'm not condoning her behavior by any means or saying you shouldn't "out" the A. She is definitely in the wrong. I'm just asking if there is any entrance back into the marriage whereby she can preserve some of her pride? She's pretty insecure to begin with, so running in circles seems to be the only strategy she can think of. She's hoping for some magic rescue from the sky. Can you be that rescue in some way that preserves some shred of dignity for her and yet doesn't compromise your beliefs and principles?
Of course, I also understand that you're not sure you still want the M. Is there anything about her right now that you can genuinely respect admire and use this molecule of connection to draw her back in?
I think cobra's point is that at this point how can Mrs. choc "save face"? Is her only way back into the marriage to grovel and be contrite and agree 100% that she is totally at fault and the scum of the earth?
Lillie, I admitted my faults in our marriage early on in this -- way back on "We Need To Talk" D-day, mid-May. Also a week or so after that. I have asked for her forgiveness for my sins of pride, of neglect, and of hurtful thoughts that she didn't even know I was thinking, and for failing to be the leader that she needed. She forgave me.
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Can you be that rescue in some way that preserves some shred of dignity for her and yet doesn't compromise your beliefs and principles?
That is PRECISELY what I'm trying to do, and to be. A "safe passage" back to a loving home and a loving marriage. That is the whole concept behind an approach where I DO stay in the same house with her -- so she can see that I'm still a great dad, and a great guy, and good husband material, and that I'm ready to forgive her. I have told her that I'm ready, but forgiveness has to come with repentance, and so far she has refused to turn away from her destructive behavior. So all I can do is be here and be ready to catch her when she falls.
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Of course, I also understand that you're not sure you still want the M. Is there anything about her right now that you can genuinely respect admire and use this molecule of connection to draw her back in?
That's a great question, Lillie, and I have to admit that it's getting harder and harder every day to see anything. I'm rapidly losing what's left of my love for her. If something doesn't break soon, it may be too late.
Counseling is not an option while there is still an active affair going on. Most professionals, even on the "non-exposure" side of the aisle, would agree with that. I also have D18 overhearing her mother telling her brother on the phone that "I'm only going to go to counseling so people will think that I'm trying," and she's given me the same impression and I also confronted her with the "overhear" and she didn't deny the comment.
No, I don't have any guarantees that this approach WILL work. I am fairly certain, however, that if I DON'T do it, I have zero chance.
Lil: Is there anything about her right now that you can genuinely respect admire and use this molecule of connection to draw her back in?
Choc: I have to admit that it's getting harder and harder every day to see anything.
Yeah, I get that.
Is there anything about her personally, about her Self apart from her irrational, destructive, and hurtful behavior that you can admire or respect?
If she were to ditch the OM and return to the marriage, what about HER would you most look forward to connecting with again? Besides the fact that you want this tension to be over with, and besides the fact that you would want companionship and intimacy from her, and help with the children, and generally a nice lifestyle... what does Mrs choc as herself bring to your life that only SHE can bring? (Not saying that you couldn't find another loving partner.) What is unique, special, and lovable about her that makes you want her in your life at all?
I guess I'm asking, what's in it for her to come back into this marriage? Besides the lifestyle issues-- house, income, family life. Is she expecting a lifetime of recrimination and punishment from you. When she looks at you these days, what does she see in a future with you?
Hard to think about these things... but those lovable parts-- if there are any-- are still there under her delusions.
No one would blame you if you just said, "I've had enough." Not suggesting you are doing anything wrong. I think you're handling this beautifully. Just asking some questions in a different direction.
Geez chocolateeyes, your story sounds almost identical to mine. I posted for the first time yesterday and someone told me to read up on yours. Isnt this the hardest thing you have ever endured? I am a mental mess myself! Scared to fricken death and feel like a lost soul, worried about finances, my kids and wanting to literally tear the head off of the man that has intruded into my marriage. Which byt he way is a 2 time a day for 10 years bodybuilder with 21 inch arms and 6% body fat. I would need a baseball bat. But with my adrenaline and hate I now have for someone who was my friend and fellow kids football coach with me my 16' arms and 195 Lb frame could take on Zuess himself and I havent been in a fight for 30 years. Fortunately I am smarter and worry about my kids so I just stay away from him.
H-40 W-33 Married 13.5 yrs S18, S11, D15, D9 W asked for D on 6/05/07
Counseling is not an option while there is still an active affair going on. Most professionals, even on the "non-exposure" side of the aisle, would agree with that.
Counseling is not an option only because you say so. It can be an option if need be, regardless of what the “experts” say. Each situation is different and those “experts” screw up plenty, so don’t take that as some kind on guarantee.
I also have D18 overhearing her mother telling her brother on the phone that "I'm only going to go to counseling so people will think that I'm trying," and she's given me the same impression and I also confronted her with the "overhear" and she didn't deny the comment.
So let her go thinking that she is keeping up appearances for sake of the kids. What does it matter why she goes, so long as she goes? As the issues come out, it will become clear enough to her what the true problems are, but not going at all will allow the fog of denial to stay over her. Her statement about “trying” is just a deflection. If it were over, she would say it is over and she would leave. She doesn’t want to be the bad guy, to be blamed or have to deal with the guilt. This is one way she can justify her actions. But at the same time she is too scared to leave on her own, so she plays along with you by saying she will attend counseling.
Again, who cares what her reasons are. They are all deflections, delusions, justifications, etc. All those ideas will change over time with proper counseling, EVEN IF SHE IS STILL SEEING THE OM. Be sure your insistence that she stop seeing the OM first is not just another morality power play over her, or some way to feel like you are "getting even." That is only another form of escalation.
Choco This is probably a No but, have you gotten to a point in your conversations with W about what a new M would be like? Or is that just way too soon? Is she not willing to have a heartfelt discussion with you about fixing the M? My impression is that she is 100% out-the-door (at least in her head) and therefore, any progress between you two will be minimal. Maybe a S would not be such a bad thing. She can gain her "space" and won't feel like you are constantly trying to win her back. Just thinking out loud here. Until she can gain some of that freedom she wants so desperately, maybe she won't be able to see what she has lost, kwim? LFL
Since "D-day" six weeks ago, my wife has shown ZERO INTEREST in working at the marriage, despite many, many attempts by me to say "let's try." All she will say is "What if it doesn't work? I can't 'do this' again!" meaning, be in this place again where Choc. says "I will no longer live in a sex-less, affection-less marriage. I have called her on it 3 years ago and 5 years ago and several times before that, each without any real sustainable improvement from her, and I think she's just tired of having a mirror held up to her own issues.
(Yeah, once every 3 years or so, I do complain about the "no sex/no affection" thing -- I'm so NEEDY, aren't I?? )
So, since this has started, every book I've read, every website I've visited, every effort I've invested has gone toward trying to save my marriage. Every book she has read, every website she's visited, every effort she has invested has gone toward trying to get OUT of the marriage. Choc.
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